Specs for Western Mountaineering Vapor jacket?

I just took 30 seconds on the phone w/WM to ascertain that the fill weight of the Vapor jacket is 5.625 oz for a size medium. By comparison, the Flight jacket is about 5.25 oz and the Flash (edits for typos)is about 3 oz. The phone number is a dealer-only line.

As a dealer, I have always had prompt responses to any inquiries… generally one phone call, I get a real person, and I get an anwer. I don't recall ever calling during business hours and not having someone answer the phone. In other words, in my several years dealing w/WM my experience has been that they are basically always in their office during business hours.

If you're wondering why they don't provide direct-contact info for consumers, it's because they run a small shop. Answering the phones for a company their size would take people off the sewing floor too long and they couldn't get any work done, or they'd have to hire extra people just to answer the phone. WM relies on an excellent network of dealers to provide good customer service; most questions can be answered directly w/a dealer, and if not then it's far fewer calls from dealers w/questions than from a huge, international consumer base for a small shop. Not speaking for WM, just my observations.

Sizing is nothing bizarre. What size jacket do you normally wear? It'll be the same size in the WM, with a perhaps ever-so-slightly trimmer fit. I wear a medium in pretty much everything, and I wear a medium in my WM down pieces.

Edit: Not sure what your question is regarding shell fabric; the description and product photo both clearly indicate a Windstopper shell… If you're just not familiar w/that material, think of it as Goretex-light. Windproof, highly water-resistant. It is a pretty durable fabric, particularly as compared to uber-lite sleeping bag shells, but it's not something I'd wear to mend fences, either.

Thank you for such a thorough reply.

Your remarks about their being a small company are extremely defensive, and certainly aren't news. I simply commented that I had no way until now of finding out this information. Again, it is odd that they list fill weights for their other jackets, but not this one. They should simply remedy that.

You may wish to share your WM contact info with Backcountry Gear, who clearly haven't such a clear communication channel with them as you have. I've emailed my questions about this jacket to three of WM's no-doubt excellent dealers, as you put it, in the last week, and aside from Backcountry Gear, have received no replies. This may be due in part to the holidays, of course.

Their sizing may be nothing bizarre, but that's not been my experience with all companies which make technical jackets, which is why I mentioned it. I'm thinking primarily of Patagonia, whose "regular fit" down sweater, in large, wafts about on me like a poncho despite my having a 42 inch chest and weighing 180 pounds. If you find that a medium in every brand on earth fits you just fine, I can only say that you're a very lucky shopper.

My impression of Gore Windstopper is that it is a laminate, applied to a fabric. Is that wrong? The Montbell Permafrost Light Down Jacket, for example, uses Gore Windstopper, but its shell material is listed as 30-denier Ballistic rip-stop nylon. You also seem to be describing Gore Tex as a fabric, which is a strange notion as it's often used on leather shoes.

Thank you again for taking the trouble to contact Western Mountaineering.

Since 2/3 of your OP questioned the integrity of the company and the quality of their service, I thought it best to clarify that in years of experience with the company I have had no experience to qualify such concerns. Your implications against the company were worded quite strongly, so I wanted to counter your concerns with my overwhelmingly positive history with the company, that's all. In other words, no reason to be "spooked," and I'm somewhat incredulous at the replies you got from backcountry, and wanted to clarify for others that my experiences have been the polar opposite. I dunno; I've never emailed WM, just called. I apologize that you have had such poor response to your questions from other dealers.

My comments on sizing were merely meant to allay any of your fears about sizing… ie, just order whatever size you normally would. Of course not every brand or style on earth fits me perfectly in a medium, but the majority do. If you order the size that you have the most of in your closet, you'll probably be fine. I'm also a 42" chest and ~170 pounds and fit a medium well. It is slightly more snug than other mediums. I wear a size medium Patagonia down sweater and can layer comfortably under it, though it is not voluminous. I think the fit of the down sweater and the WM stuff is pretty comparable IME.

The membranes are, indeed, typically laminated. To a liner material and inserted into boots as a bootie, for example. My words were meant to indicate that the lamination process does combine a couple of layers, so you inherently have a stronger material than either material alone.

Cheers!

The OP is correct that there's really no excuse not to have the specs for a product on the WM website. I recently ordered a WM Flight Jacket, but with great hesitancy since I'm not 100% sure that I ordered the proper size. We'll find out when it arrives today. But I think anyone spending $250 on a jacket ought to be able to see the specs of it before they order. WM certainly has plenty of stuff to chew on WRT their fine sleeping bags on their website. Wouldn't take much to fix that IMHO.

Yeah, you're both absolutely right, they should publish their stats. People looking at their brand are looking for that kind of info!

Brad,
Sorry to drift a bit here, but I assume you meant that the Flash jacket has 3.5 ounces of fill… also, do you have any idea how much fill is in the Meltdown? I am surprised that the Vapor only has half an ounce more down than the Flight, and would love to be able to compare fill for their entire jacket line.

And yes, they need better garment info- the sleeping bag charts are wonderful.

Jonathan,

This jacket uses Gore Wind Stopper for the shell fabric but the baffle seams are not sealed. It will handle light precipitation well as long as you keep the DWR refreshed.

The sizing of the WM jackets are roughly equivalent to the Feathered Friends equivalent jacket specs which are found on the FF Web site.

For the average 30 year old male, wearing typical winter base layers and doing camp chores, this jacket tests comfortable to the 31F – 10F range.

Brad,

If your really did mean that the WM Hooded Flash (not Flight) has 3.5 oz of down please ask WM when they changed their spec. As of 8/11/09 it was 3.0 oz per Will's BPL review of the WM Hooded Flash jacket.

Thank you for the information, Richard.

I'm wondering if anyone could compare the Vapor to the Patagonia Fitz Roy Down Jacket. It has 192 grams of 700 fill power down. I've been frustrated by the boxy shape of many Patagonia garments in the past, but I tried this on in a medium and it fit like a glove. I would have preferred something a bit longer, but the fit (larges are typically a bit baggy here or there for me, as I have a 32 inch waist, but mediums usually haven't long enough sleeves) and the extremely durable-seeming fabric (50-denier) were great. I'm looking for something to wear while commuting on foot in the colder parts of the midwest this winter, without a fleece or anything like that on beneath it–just street clothes with an undershirt, usually. I have a Montbell U.L Tec Down Jacket which becomes insufficient somewhere in the upper 20's, unless I'm really plodding along with a vengeance. It also looks a bit ridiculous as casual clothing.

I did consider the hooded (and longer) version of the Fitz Roy, incidentally, and while I wouldn't have minded a hood, the delicacy of the fabric excludes it from consideration.

So I'm considering the Vapor because it's an about equally nice looking, perhaps better made version of the Fitz Roy, and I'm spotting it for $200 on eBay lately.

Jonathan,

Your query is unique in that it requires a very different set of models versus what I normally use to determine the incremental insulation required for UL backpacking camp chores, sheltered from the wind.

Rather than bore you with all of the complex analysis I will just answer your question. Wearing the MB UL Tech down with street clothes and walking, you said that you felt the combo was good to the upper 20’s. My analysis shows that the thermo neutral point for your existing ensemble, while walking, is ~35F. Your body’s heat capacity (largely determined by mass and fat content) determine at what temperature that you sense the threshold. It is always at a lower temp than where the thermo neutral threshold is actually crossed. 35F versus 29F or 6F is a reasonable variation.

The equivalent thermo neutral point for the WM Vapor jacket is 12F and the Pat Fitz Roy is 7F.

If I had one of those little emoticons that portray someone bowing down in awe, I would insert it here. Thanks again.

Brad,

There is no need to call WM again. It is the new WM Flash XR jacket (11 oz) that has 3.5 oz of fill. This is the jacket you mistakenly called the Flight.

The WM Hooded Flash jacket (9 oz), that Will R. reviewed, still has 3 oz of fill.

Yup, I made a typo. Sorry 'bout that! Flash, not Flight, and 3 oz, not 3.5, for that model Flash.

I've worn the Vapor jacket for winter city wear and found that it didn't breathe well for me. My understanding is that the Gore shell fabric, being water resistant, doesn't allow for much breathing(?)

Would WM's Flight jacket with its "Lightweight 0.9 oz. Micro-Dot Ripstop Shell Fabric" be a better option for breathability?

Please advise. Thanks.

MB,

The Gore Wind Stopper shell on the WM Vapor has approximately the same breathability as eVENT. Since the shell on the WM Flight is down proof I would not expect a detectable improvement. Beside that the Flight is not as warm as the Vapor (4F).

MB, given the weights I'd assume that the WM Meltdown is a better comparison to the Vapor… Richard, can you give any info on how they compare warmth wise?

I have the microfiber shell used in the Meltdown on a sleeping bag, and it is more breathable than the Pertex Endurance and Conduit shells I have had on other bags. It's a good middle-road fabric (durable, soft, nice drape, lightweight, windproof, etc) and I like it very much.

Richard,

Can I assume from the Iclo of the MB Tech Jacket that the Iclo of the Tech Pants is the same 2.13?

Thanks

Pat

Michael,

There are negligible insulation differences between the various Western Mountaineering mid-range jackets (Flight, Meltdown, and Vapor). The 1.5 MET performance range only varies from 31F for the Meltdown to 34F for the Flight and the Vapor.

There are major shell material differences between models to optimize each of them for a different application. The Flight uses .9 oz fabric for UL backpacking. The Meltdown uses 1.7 oz fabric for mountaineering. The Vapor uses Gore Windstopper for environments were sustained high water resistance is required.

Patrick,

For estimation work they are ~ the same (2.13 for the jacket and 1.96 for the pants).

I've noticed that the Patagonia DAS Parka would give me the extra length, and the hood, that attracted me about the Fitz Roy Hooded Jacket, apparently in a much less delicate outer fabric. I have no clue how its insulation would compare, though, with that of the (hoodless) Fitz Roy Jacket. I think I've narrowed myself down to these two.

170 gm of Primaloft One (in the torso, at least) vs 192 grams of 700 fill power down. Is there a clear winner? I would be prepared to go with the Fitz Roy (hoodless) Jacket, I think, if it were significantly warmer than the DAS.

Johnathan,

The Fitz Roy is only marginally warmer than the DAS (.22 Iclo).

The new DAS Parka is also much more compressable, due to the new Primaloft One insulation and is much less bulky feeling than the 2008 and earlier jackets…

Jeff

Thanks Richard Nisley and Michael Febbo for your input about the WM Vapor jacket. I think I might check it out again…

Would anyone know were I could buy a black WM Vapor jacket in a size XS? This seems to be a tough one as I'm finding them in every size but the XS (I'm a 5'5 female).

Please advise. Thank you.