Best Practices for Cool Damp Weather Dressing

I hike a lot in New Hampshire and Maine and often experience similar conditions.

This is what I wear during hiking if it's raining/foggy/misty:

* Nylon fast drying shorts
* cuben rain skirt over the shorts (roll up shorts legs to keep dry)
* lightweight merino wool top like the one offered by BPL
* light waterproof breathable jacket

In camp I'll put on a pair of light capiline long underwear, and if I'm at an AT shelter or popular campsite I'll put the nylon shorts back on over them. I keep the merino wool top on and if its chilly put on my UL down inner and a lightweight beanie.

Yeah, difficult.

Light synthetic clothing is the fastest to dry. And keeping moving generates heat.

Cheers

I wear ID Thru Hiker jacket and ID eVent pants in the 40-50 degree conditions. This has kept me dry and relatively comfortable during a 36 hours of rain in Maine in late August this year. Once in camp I add MB down inner and a fleece skull cap.

Richard,

I've tried to do a lot of research on your question lately; reading and searching all through this site and the internet in general to find info or articles on dealing with cold and wet.

There was a really interesting article written by Alan Dixon on BPL a couple of years ago. Search on cold and wet plus maybe Alan Dixon. Or maybe some computer savvy reader will post the link.

I have the following probably pretty obvious observations.

1. There's no such thing as waterproof and breathable..not effectively anyway, unless maybe you're standing still with a pulse rate of @ 60, temps to match and a fresh breeze…. despite the possibly billion(s) spent on clothing alledged to be.
2. This leads to the gist of the problem: Keeping external atmospheric moisture ( rain!) from wetting you or your insulation while at the same time keeping internal or personally generated moisture ( sweat, insensible transpiration…. from wetting you or your insulation.

Good luck solving that one! It seems to me that most of the "solutions" like Roger's above could be described as the "wetsuit" solution…. keeping a warm layer of moisture next to your skin usually keeping it warm by movement generating heat.

Then when you stop get out of the wet stuff and get into something dry!

I've been fiddling with a vb vest made from a kitchen trash can worn over a very thin like capilene 1 baselayer, with a waterproof silnylon cape to stop the rain. The baselayer gets DAMP ( measures 1 to 2 ounces heavier after most
3 mile hikes done in @ 1 hour ) but whatever I'm wearing over the trash bag cape doesn't and the issue of condensation can be managed if it's not too warm and you don't get too revved up.

Might be easier to manage in intermittent rain with a waterproof jacket where you could periodically open it to vent but you'd be wet inside and out with a steady rain that prevented you from opening the jacket combined with a high caloric output because while this "system" slows and catches most of your core moisture; especially if the air temps are low and you keep the rpms under control ( for me @ 125 heart rate )But there's still some moisture being put out that could condense inside your waterproof rain shield; especially if you're cranking out the btu's

Works best from 30 to 40. Got to have a mighty light insulation layer above 40 and I drop that and go w/ just the vp vest and the thin liner @ 50.( remember you have the third outer waterproof layer ( so if I pull up the cape I'm wearing a trash bag over an undershirt… very stylish!

I'll say this. You may get the base layer pretty damp but with the vp vest you stay warm. Just like a wetsuit!

I haven't had problems with getting wet enough to have rolling sweat; just a nice warm dampness, but even with no sleeves on the vapor barrier liner or the cape… if you're on a good hard pull like 2000 feet in 3 miles you are going to need to either slow down and cool off occasionally and/or vent some of that hot air.

But one thing it does improve is you are not almost immediately cold whan you stop or slow down. In fact you don't really get chilled at all.

I don't know; reading back over this it seems like a lot of trouble and really almost silly; but it's an interesting problem. I've had good success with rain kilts as well.( must not call it a skirt! ) Warmer it gets the more you roll up the kilt. Much better at keeping the skin dry. I know you're thinking no way but I bet you'd look good in a kilt!

Richard,

Vladimir uses eVent parka and pants and that, to me, is the very best shell layer for 40- 50 F. weather. By the way that temperature range, along with fog and misting rain, is dangerous hypothermia weather for the poorly dressed. If you can afford eVent get it. I have to make do with Cabela'a Rainy River GTX PacLite suit.

I'd recommend light OR medium weight long johns as a base layer. Personally my 10 year old Cabela's Thermastat long johns are the best I've seen. And then add light fleece or heavier pile undergarments as weather dictates. Keep it all synthetic for comfort and durability of garments.

After all those years of XC skiing (racing & patrolling), hunting, and backpacking in damp northwest Pennsylvania, and now alpine skiing & winter camping in the west the Thermastat longies are still going strong.

"I've had good success with rain kilts as well.( must not call it a skirt! ) Warmer it gets the more you roll up the kilt. Much better at keeping the skin dry. I know you're thinking no way but I bet you'd look good in a kilt!"

At 68 I'm not particularly worried about how attractive I am. Mainly I'm interested in avoiding hypothermia while still being able to continue hiking and camping. 2,179.l miles is a long way.

I thought I was pretty experienced, and prepared, but my recent experience http://trailjournals.com/tuney taught me that there are still some holes in my gear, and in my methods.

Much has been said re. fabric choices.

Some thoughts on 'practices' — Don't start off dressing warm. Be on the cool side a bit so you won't perspire as much when your body heats up during your hike. Also, be on the look out for overheating. Take off a layer before you actually feel warm / toasty. Sometimes, we can be so focused on our hike that by the time we feel 'hot' — we're already sweating badly.

Sound advice. I'll keep that in mind. It's the old leave the jacket on on a cool morning when starting out only to stop somewhere in the first mile to take it off and put it in the pack game.

An old school solution that still works wonderfully is an umbrella. Of course it's not helpful if conditions are windy, but more often than not one can hike far more comfortably using an umbrella than not. It's truly waterproof and breatheable after all. You have to switch to using one trekking pole instead of two, but so what? That won't be a problem on most of the AT. Montbell, for one, makes a very light and compact bumbershoot:

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?p_id=2328311

Combo it with a highly breatheable windshirt and maybe some chaps and you're good to go for several hours of hiking in wet weather. Pack some Driducks or some other more substantial gear for wearing in camp or to use in windy conditions.

G

Hi Cola

I agree with much of what you said, but I'd like to suggest a small change in one place:
> the gist of the problem: Keeping external atmospheric moisture ( rain!) from
> wetting you or your insulation while at the same time keeping internal or
> personally generated moisture ( sweat, insensible transpiration…. from
> wetting you or your insulation.

General experience is that you are going to get wet (despite the Gore-Tex ad), but just being wet does not matter. After all, do you mind being wet in the shower or when swimming? What matters is not getting cold. You refer to this when you say 'but with the vb vest you stay warm' and elsewhere.

The key issue here is to keep fresh cold rain off you and to block any wind. Yeah, I guess you could call it a 'wetsuit solution'.

Cheers

I find that an umbrella pairs well with ULA's rain skirt. Oh, I look quite the sight coming down trail but . . .

Welcome to the Pacific Northwest :) You're describing the conditions for about 10 months of the year here.

The advice to accept being wet is solid. If you're moving and working even moderately hard, your WB gear – no matter how much you're willing to spend – won't keep up with you.

I typically hike in clothes that will dry fast later on and go as stripped down as I can tolerate without nearing hypothermia. I have backpacked plenty of times in the rainy upper 30s in nothing but thin nylon shorts and a synthetic t-shirt. Moving is not a problem, but stopping sure is. I keep a puffy warm synthetic jacket at the top of my pack in conditions like this a put it on as soon as I stop. The light/thin layers will dry very fast if they're buried deep inside the jacket. This will get you close to freezing if you're moving. If it's colder than that it's snowing and that's generally easier to deal with as far as being wet.

I do carry a spare pair of boxers and tshirt in case I'm really soaked. Even if I'm super chilled and my clothes are sopping wet, fresh underwear and tshirt brings me back pretty quickly.

The windshirt advice is also good. Even soaked they're light, cut wind, and dry very fast inside the puffy jacket.

To me, the biggest concern is having a pile of soaking wet clothes because they simply do not dry out in this climate. Lighter, thinner, synthetic stuff has the best chance to dry so that's what I go with – even in winter.

Interesting thread. A few more observations for whatever they are worth…

I have found that wearing a base layer, wind shirt (as others have mentioned) and then rain gear works well at maintaining warmth in cool / cold conditions. The wind shirt dries much faster than additional insulation.

Like others have said, the trick is to keep moving. I actually try to remember to slow down in the rain to reduce overheating (hence excess sweating) and to conserve energy and reduce the need for rest breaks. It is the breaks that tend to chill you.

Outdoor educators managing kids in these conditions follow the maxim "feed 'em and beat 'em." Which means keep the engine stoked with food and keep moving as much as possible. Keep high energy snacks close at hand.

Do take short stops for substantial food and water breaks when and if there are lulls in the weather. Take advantage of these for reenergizing rather than trying to cover ground. Hiking in the rain is a zen thing. Acceptance…

If you just need to stop 'cause your tired, set up your shelter (this is one real advantage of a tarp – you can set it up for shelter over ANY kind of ground if all you're doing under it is sitting and cooking), put on some insulation, get out your stove and brew up a cuppa whatever makes you happy. Take the time to get out of the weather and add external heat. All's right with the world with a nice steaming mug of oversweetened tea and milk… I try to make a full quart, drink a pint and carry a pint wrapped in insultation for the next stop. This is true at breakfast as well – carry a pint of sweet tea tucked away to stay warm.

Consider stopping early and shortening your day; it is after all vacation and not a sufferfest. Unless you're into that kind of thing… The bottom line in really skanky conditions is more about managing energy (literally the burning of caleries, the flow of blood to brain, etc.) than staying perfectly dry (a noble but ultimately fruitless quest). What you DON"T want is to stop over-tired and depleted in conditions that invite hypothermia. You need to have the energy to 1) stay warm and 2) take care of yourself with your high quality camping skills.

Shorten hiking poles and keep your hands at or below waist level to prevent water from running up your sleeves. Similarly, pull up the sleeves on your shirt to prevent the cuffs from wicking water up your arms.

In camp, if at all possible, wear damp cloths dry. Your body heat will dry synthetic clothing reasonably quickly. Put a synthetic jacket over damp shirt to stay warm. Obviously this doesn't hold true if your shivering cold or your clothing is absolutely soaked.

Hope that helps and best wishes on your AT adventure!

I am interested in those who've mentioned rain kilts – what has your experience with them been in windy conditions? Oddly enough, I'm considering using one in Scotland…

I just want to thank everyone for taking the time to share your thought and comments on this subject. I'm new to BPL, and I'm impressed with the level of experience here.

I've been hiking for a long time. Been lucky I guess. The only two times I've had to get off the trail is in these conditions. Once was with a group of young boy scouts on a spring break hike.

I guess my "layering" in this weather is metabolic. I wear the same thin base layer as always (a ~150g/m2 wool). If temps are ~40 I'll put on the shell, if temps are ~50 I just wear the base layer.

Assuming the cold end of the scale, I've found that pushing up the sleeves of the jacket/shirt to above my elbows helps keep the cool balance. In terms of "metabolic layering," I force myself to hike slow enough to minimize my heat output for the most part. If I start to cool off, I munch on some lunch (ie, eat a clif bar) and hike hard. Rest breaks are the killer; take too long, your metabolism tanks, and you get a chill that sets in hard. It takes me a real long time to get warmed back up from that stage. My approach is to take very short breaks, ie just long enough to relace boots or something. I figure that since I'm hiking a little slower, anyway, I'm not as likely to need the break.

I keep my primary insulation layers in the pack for camp. I want my insulation dry! As soon as I get to camp I get into the insulation and set about getting something hot in my belly, whether it's dinner or a beverage such as tea or coffee. Fastest way to warm up is from the inside.

If it's 50*F and rain, I'll probably just get wet. Same principles as above apply, but personally I just can't keep my metabolic heat output low enough to not drench myself in sweat under a shell when backpacking. That is compounded by the fact that I am, in fact, overheating, which wears me down. That said, other factors do come into consideration… winds, terrain, personal feeling, etc.

Roger,

I guess that's why you're on the staff… you write more concisely! ( Not to mention your knowledge, experience and etc. etc, ;)

But that is the gist of my experience as well. You're going to get wet.

I'm trying to figure out how to limit the damage
And/or turn it to my advantage.

The trash bag vest keeps my core warm, even when I'm not cranking out btus. For one thing there's basically no evaporative cooling. Also let's me choose when to air it out and thus create that evaporative cooling.

Also keeps my core insulation fairly dry. At least it's not wet-thru from the inside out.

Seems to me it's lighter,less expensive and more reliable to stick with silnylon rain gear. Stuff also dries really fast and has multiple uses. For ex you can use the kilt for a gear ground cloth, tarp side wall ( really a nice extra!) and even in a pinch as a dressing room.

Lot of good ideas on this thread: Especially those regarding as Ben describes it "practices" Starting cool and watching the body heat, staying fueled-up, taking it easy, stopping for a cup or 3 of hot tea and etc.

John Flanagan: The Zen of rain indeed! Some of my very best hikes have been in the pouring rain. It gets pretty windy on the Outer Banks and I haven't had any problems with wind blowing up my skir…ahhh kilt.

BTW: My wife just pointed out to me that "doing the Appalachian Trail" has ( Thanks to our neighboring Gov) become the new hip uphemism for cheating on your wife.

I regularly multi-day hike where it can rain for long periods. Apart from falling in rivers, i've never been soaked. :)
I accept some dampness as the price you pay for wearing a waterproof shell all day though.

My standard set-up is a merino base layer, a 100 weight fleece and an eVent shell. I think fleece is the perfect fabric for aerobic exercise in cold/wet weather, if i'm using a membrane layer system. It doesn't retain moisture, and dries very quickly. I use synthetic 'puffy' insulation as my break/camp warm wear.

In cold/wet winter weather, i prefer using a Paramo system. My Aspira Smock and Aspira bibs can't be beat when it comes to handling condensation. There are plenty of ventilation options, and i rarely get damp through sweat. I only wear a base layer under Paramo gear.

As Curt said, "Welcome to our World". This type of weather is quite common around here, especially in the winter. Unfortunately, if you are trying to save weight, you will find the trade-offs tricky. I do a lot more day trips (hiking, cross country skiing, snow shoeing) then backpacking. On day trips, I don't care quite as much about the weight. Basically, I take the following:

1) Synthetic T-Shirt, Nylon Shorts
2) Fleece Sweater (Patagonia Capilene — about 200 weight)
3) O2 Raingear
4) Fleece hat
5) Lightweight synthetic gloves
6) Waterproof mitts (MLD)

For the winter (typically a few degrees above or below freezing and precipitating), I add:
7) A synthetic pullover (Cocoon Hoody)
8) Fleece pants
9) Heavier wool mitts (to put over the gloves)
10) I replace the MLD Mitts with longer waterproof over mitts

If it's really cold, I add long underwear (top and bottom) and a balaclava for my face. I haven't been in really, really cold weather.

The advantage of fleece is that it breathes really well. It's not as efficient as high loft insulation, but I find the trade-off worth it. Also consider extra gloves as well as extra pairs of socks. These don't weigh much, and can make a big difference in comfort. It is also really easy to get gloves wet, as there is a tendency to wait before putting on the over mitts.

Oh, and I agree with the idea of staying warm. It sounds obvious, but when cross country skiing, I often have to warm up after eating lunch. This means that I'm on top of a peak, I have to ski down a bit and then back up. If I don't, then I'll probably have a long, chilly ride back down.

> I do carry a spare pair of boxers and tshirt in case I'm really soaked.
Absolutely!

Another good thought: there is little to compare with getting into a reliable shelter at the end of a miserable (cold & wet) day, getting changed into dry warm clothing, and brewing up hot soup. It's great!

Cheers

For the purposes of discussion take Mike Reid's very practical and light-weight standard set-up as an example.It seems just about perfect for relatively high activity in 30-40 degree weather ( 0 to +3? in centigrade…?)

Mike notes: I think fleece is the perfect fabric for aerobic exercise in cold/wet weather, if i'm using a membrane layer system. It doesn't retain moisture, and dries very quickly.

Which seems very reasonable. But if the fleece doesn't retain moisture why does it need to dry very quickly? And where's the heat coming from to dry it?

I'm guessing that:

1. both the base layer of merino and the fleece layer weigh more after a good hour or 2 of hard walking from the accumulation of moisture.
2. Any moisture "lost" or evaporated is also a factor of heat lost through evaporative cooling.
3. If you swapped the event for silnylon the difference in the weight of the baselayers ( and hence the amount of water passed into the atmosphere as a gas through the event) would be negligible.
4. And you'd stay warmer keeping the moisture trapped next to your skin, as well as better hydrated.

I'd suggest adding a vapor barrier vest of whatever design would.

1. Reduce the need/weight of insulation
2. Keep you warmer
3. Keep the necessary insulation dryer.

Any ideas?

Hi Cola,
The fleece fibers don't absorb water. Any water is contained in the spaces between the fibers. As a test, stick a 100 weight pull-on in a tub of water. Take it out, give it a shake, and weigh it. I'll bet it doesn't weigh much more than it did before you dunked it in the tub. :)

I think i would melt in a VB silnylon jacket. I tend to run hot, and wearing a VB jacket above freezing sounds like a nightmare to me.

Great comments.

Here are the links to a couple of articles that I used successfully to stay warm but not dry. I really like cold, wet weather. I believe the key is to stay warm and not worry about staying dry from your sweat.

Your shelter will keep you dry at night.

article link

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/cold_wet_gear.html

another link

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_guide_to_backpacking_in_sustained_rain.html

And so we come nearly full circle. George thanks for posting the link to the article by Alan Dixon. The thread comments on that article are also very interesting.

Mike: polyester doesn't absorb much water, but water can be retained in the fabric. My point was that it is not "escaping" to the atmosphere through the weave of the heavier Event fabric but staying within the barrier of the clothing you are wearing.

Thread on event weight:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=13065

And I would never ever advocate an vapor barrier jacket as the outer layer. For one thing everything you wear inside the jacket would eventually get saturated with your own moisture and things would also get very warm.

But an extremely lightweight vest over your core but under your insulation (if insulation is even necessary)could keep that insulation from getting soaked and also lessen the accumulation of moisture outside the vapor barrier keeping everything inside the rainshell dryer and keep your core warmer

1. Base layer: Compression style probably better or a tight fit. Polyester for reduced water absorption.
2. Vapor barrier vest: I'm experimenting with a kitchen trash can liner about.6 mil weighs about .4 oz
3. Insulation layer.
4. Rain barrier: I'm using a cape

All the comments I've read; for ex. in the articles posted by George have one thing in common.

Every poster who described a system they felt worked were essentially describing a system that allowed them to get wet but held the moisture next to their skin where it stayed warm and the system kept the infiltration of outside moisture ( and cold air) slow while it warmed. I.E. a WETSUIT

Heck the Paramo cloak referenced above is a wetsuit; and a 2 lb one at that.

I just would like to think that with the experience on this blog we could collectively design a better, lighter, less expensive heck even dryer……….. wetsuit.