Layering Insulated Jackets vs One Heavy Jacket

There is merit in both systems, Jim. I wouldn't say one was better ALL the time, and i use both.
Storms and gale force winds are a regular part of the weather i hike in. When you are crouching down behind a boulder in a gale, trying to get some shelter from horizontal hail and snow, easiest is often best. Pulling on a thick belay jacket that offers instant comfort, is easier to manage than several layers. What is the saying? As the temperature drops, so does your IQ. :)

I guess it's all about what is best in different circumstances, and having options to suit.

Geez, that is a good sale on the BPL pro parka

Link to another chart

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=18950&skip_to_post=147100

Also, Backcountry gear has the Montbell thermawrap parka on sale for $140. Not sure how the CLO compares to the BPL pro parka.

I think there are advantages and disadvantages to each approach. Mike mentioned one advantage to a single puffy jacket (ease of use). Another advantage is that it is more efficient (lighter for the amount of warmth) since you have one inner lining, one outer lining, and one zipper, with the rest of it being insulation.

The big advantage of a layered approach is cost and flexibility. You can always add cheap layers (wool, fleece, etc.) as long as your outer layer is wind proof (and rain proof if you are dealing with temperatures just above freezing). This reduces cost, since you probably already have some of the layers and additional layers are cheaper than a really big puffy jacket. You also have the flexibility of layering as conditions change. The biggest disadvantage to layering (other than efficiency, as mentioned in the previous paragraph) is that you have to make sure the outer layer is bigger than the inner layers. Sometimes, this means getting an extra large, when you normally wear a large. Fortunately, the BPL jackets (or at least the one I have) are really roomy, so they should fit over most clothing (assuming you will layer it that way).

For the conditions you mention, I would get the BPL parka. If it turns out need just a smidge more warmth, I would add extra fleece or wool. I doubt you will need it, though.

Mike, that's a good point about the simplicity of a single jacket in bad conditions. I think I'm aiming for a good Alpine quality jacket for next winter.

Troy, I looked at the Thermawrap parka, but it rates a bit lower on Richard's scale for warmth. Also the BPL parka is sized and designed to fit over other layers. That said, if the BPL Pro Parka weren't on sale, I'd look at the Thermwrap, or more likely, a heavier jacket that could stand alone.

Ross, you summarize the pros and cons pretty well. I was glad to read in Richard's posts that at least there is a small warmth gain in the air pockets between layers, somewhat compensating for the disadvantage in efficiency in all the extra fabric that comes with layering.

How is the hem length on your Pro Parka? That is the one complait that has me concerned. I'm 5'10" with a 18.5" torso for pack fitting purposes, though I don't think that exactly corresponds to jacket sizing.

I probably would have gotten one too, if I would have notice the sale before I pulled the trigger on the thermawrap parka.

That said when you get it can you let me know how the length is ??

I am 6'3.

The pro parka looks more like a jacket length to me and the thermawrap parka looks a little longer. Hard to tell from a photo though.

I have the hoody and I bought it a while ago. I got size large, which usually fits me just fine, but not with a lot to spare. I'm 6 foot even, but have a slightly larger than average torso. Anyway, the hoody is really roomy. It comes down to a few inches below the top of butt. It is rather roomy around as well. It was as if they expected folks to put stuff underneath it. I usually just have a T-Shirt and sweater underneath, but I think I could pack another layer if I wanted (even an extra layer of fleece — not to mention some long johns). I have been quite pleased with mine — I highly recommend it.

I agree with your comments about air being trapped via layers. You do add a bit of warmth just by the extra number of garments. Just make sure you have space between them.

> What is the saying? As the temperature drops, so does your IQ.

To quote Dr Phil Laws, long-time head of the Australian Antarctic Division:
"A numb brain is a dumb brain, and only a dumb brain gets a numb brain."

Cheers

I'm 6'6" and have the Cocoon Pro in XXL. It fits and actually fairly well. Unintentionally my winter layer is exactly as Richard spells out (base + MB Down Inner + Cocoon Pro). I believe Roger suggested it at some point too while I was looking for something heavier. It's a nice combination that has worked for me very well and I like the contrast of warming layers (wool, down, synthetic) as it offers me the most flexiblity, although I don't like carrying two jackets even though they are both extremely light and pack small. I have a Nunatak Skaha coming my way and it will be interesting to see how it compares as it would save me some ounces but lose me some flexiblity. The Cocoon comes to the top of my butt, not great, but good enough. Basically, typical tall guy stuff.

waited too long and they're out of stock.

Jim,

I'd second the vote for layering. And think very hard about adding some kind of vest as an emergency layer if temps drop too far for your usual layer system. keeping your core heat is vital.

Starting on the AT in February I'm going with a MB Alpine Light Parka (I finally decided on the parka despite an initial inclination towards the jacket …), and a MB Thermawrap Vest.

In addition to adding some core warmth to the parka, the Thermawrap vest is something I *might* be able to walk in if/when conditions are cold enough. No way I'll be able to walk for any distance in the park, I don't think — to warm for me, at least, in anticipated conditions. But the vest offers some good on-trail flexibility in combination with wind shirt and hat/mittens.

If someone comes up with the clo rating for thermawrap stuff (vest or jacket), I'd be interested to see that, TIA!

There was a thread on the Thermawrap last year. Take a look at Richard Nisley’s posts in this thread:

Thermawrap warm enough? on 08/04/2007

An important concept is addressed regarding metabolic rate- or how much heat your body is generating.
Resting is the baseline at 1 MET;
Sleeping is 0.8 MET
Light activity is 2.5 MET
Hiking is 7 MET

Obviously hiking pace affects the heat output, but it’s always going to be several times more than just sitting around. You don’t need a finely graduated layering system- just enough to keep you warm when hiking at the lowest expected temps and activity level plus something much warmer for when you’re resting. It’s much simpler to add one puffy parka at rest stops than to layer on multiple pieces.

I know this all too well- I wear less clothes snowshoeing at 15 degrees than I do watching a football game in LA.

Well, the clo for the jacket is in the chart, .48, and since the vest uses the same 50g Exceloft insulation of the jacket, so I believe the intrinsic clo would be the same. I just don't know the % of the body the vest covers, nor have I found it online, so I can't figure the clo value for what it would add to the overall system.

I used the vest over a Pat R1 and under a Pat. Houdini XC skiing last year in the low 20F, and found it to be a nice combo. I also using it snowshoeing in the same conditions, but with a Pat. softshell instead of the Houdini, and breaking trail it rain a little warm.

Jim,

The average vest covers 3/4 the BSA the average jacket does. So, a vest will provide you 3/4th of the same insulation in a jacket.

Thank you Richard. I'll figure this math stuff out someday.

So 75% of a jackets coverage would be 36%, making the clo for the Thermawrap vest .48x.36=.1728 of clo added to a system.

So that should give me a clo of right about 4 for my possible system of vest + down inner + alpine light + BPL 60 Pro Parka.

Warm enough for anything I plan on doing this winter.

Damn thats a lot of insulating garments.

I doubt I'd even be wearing them all at the same time, but just in case, they do fit together(well, I don't have the Pro Parka yet, but the measurements indicate it should)

Most of the time, I think it will be the Alpine light with the Down Inner in cold and dry and the Pro Parka in cold and wet.

If I am reading it right and if you are packing all that for 10dF that sounds like a bit much.

All that sounds more like -20 to me.

I would think max, a heavy weight wool base layer, wool shirt, vest or inner jacket and a pro parka and a wind shell would be enough wouldnt it ??

IE 4 layers + a wind shell. Besides with all those insul layers I think the inner garments loft would get crushed anyway.

Personally for me a decent loft insul vest of some sort combined with a synthetic outer parka with zip underarms is the best insulated setup for me.
A down or synthetic vest is probably the most versatile insul item I own. I own a few.

If it really is -20 and you are just hanging around you could always just climb into your bag and save some weight.

My super cold weather wear for years has always been a base layer of some sort, thermals, poly, silk, damart etc, a long sleeve heavy shirt, a down vest and a snowlion polarguard parka, circa 1978.

Never has let me down, but then again I have never been out lower than 5dF.

As you know neck and head is just as important as the body so a beanie or balaclava, hood, and a scarf have always made the trip.

The only reason I am not using the snowlion parka right now, is I have out grown it, I unfortunately lost the hood, and its pretty heavy at 2#, but probably lighter per warmth than 2 individual jackets.

Whatever you do I am sure it will work out and a margin of safety never hurts.

I am ready to do some cold weather hiking but I am stuck.