Epic Vs Event as FF jacket shells

Jim, I have considerable experience with both fabrics, though neither in a down jacket. Based on a tent, windshirt, and jacket I think EPIC is for all intents and purposes waterproof, not just water-resistant. Should be good enough to use in anything short of an extended downpour, certainly more than adequate for any snow conditions. eVENT's advantage (and I think it is a wonderful fabric) is that it breathes much better, making it preferred for W/B applications like a rain jacket. For a winter jacket I'd probably elect to save some money and stick with EPIC.

Regarding seams, I do have a pair of Nunatak Chugach down booties in EPIC. These are not seam-taped but I have never had the down wet after three or four years' use around camp and backcountry huts, and the occasional exposure to rain and dew on cold autum mornings.

I'll agree with Richard. I have items using both fabrics. A Wild Things Belay jacket and Windshirt, and Feathered Friends down booties in Epic, and a few waterproof/breathable shells in Event.
Unless the seams are sealed, then i can't see any advantage in using Event over Epic. The Epic i've used seems to be as waterproof as is needed in an insulation piece. I've heard the the waterproofness of Epic can vary though. I've worn my WT Belay jacket and windshirt in heavy cold rain and stayed dry. I've worn my FF booties in snow and stayed dry.

3 ply eVENT is more durable than Epic from both a tear strength and abrasian. It is also heavier as well. Epic is not waterproof which could be an issue in wet snow that clings to the fabric. According to Ryan Jordan's experience, the breathability of Epic can be poor from just above freezing to 15 degrees below as the pores clog with frozen moisture.

"it’s in moderately cold conditions (e.g., 15 deg F to 30 deg F) where Epic’s performance goes in the toilet. Epic’s performance is restored at very cold temperatures (e.g., < 15 deg F) because the interstitial fiber surfaces in the fabric’s pore space never reach a high enough temperature for liquid (and subsequently ice) to form in the pores; thus, breathability is maintained."

YMMV

You shouldn't take things out of context.

Thanks everyone, this is exactly what I was looking for. Epic it is then. Breathability shouldn't be an issue with a down jacket like this, and if it's cold enough to be wearing it, precipation will not be in it's liquid form.

Thanks.

"You shouldn't take things out of context."

Because you sell Epic and not eVENT products then you have a vested interest in saying that I took it out of context. Why don't you provide us with the right context. I cut and pasted it.

Here is another quote from the Article:

"While on mountaineering journeys with partners using Epic-shelled bags in cold (sub-freezing) weather, none of them enjoyed the benefits of “loft preservation” relative to those of us that used bags shelled with less breathable (e.g., DryLoft) or more breathable (e.g., nylon taffeta) fabrics. I would argue, based on these observations, that an Epic-shelled down sleeping bag is a particularly disastrous combination for anything but summer travel, or one-night trips in colder weather."

Where? Here: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/state_of_the_market_report_bivy_sacks_2006.html

eVENT is also much more breathable:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00316.html

In the LONG run I'd go with eVent for 1. waterPROOF breathability 2. durability (W/3-ply eVent).

Ya pays more now but less over time plus you have true waterproofness and the best breathability.

A quick preamble.

I have a FF Rock Wren made of Epic and absolutely love that fabric. I have a FF Lark made out of Gore DryLoft and a Volant made from Gore ActiVent. If given the option I would have gotten both of them in Epic.

I wouldn't call waterproof-breathable literally "water-proof". Some sleeping bag shells used to be made with Gore-Tex fabric and manufacturers would recommend seam sealing the bag for "waterproofness". One of the reasons that Gore-Tex use has been largely discontinued (I'd guess that limited breathability is the primary reason) is that owners, understanding the popular definition of the word "waterproof", would have unrealistic expectations of the bags performance…use it in rain or otherwise reckless use in very wet conditions. Waterproof/breathable fabrics have their limits on waterproofness and this can be defined in pounds/sq. inch.

Just a quick parenthetical insertion about FF products and the idea of seam sealing before I continue. FF uses a sewing technique called tuck-stitch baffles. In short, the threads at the seams are not exposed to the environment and so will not wick moisture. The fabrics water repellant treatment will go a good ways in keeping moisture from permeating the seam, but there is still no getting around the lbs/sq in. issue. The seam is more vulnerable entrance via pressure than the fabric.

The eVENT will be more water resistant than the Epic. eVENT (and Gore-Tex and other polytetrafluoroethylene treatments) are membranes that coat the fabric of choice. Epic doesn't have such a barrier. There is space between the threads and this results in a lower lbs/sq. in. threshold as compared to a membrane-based fabric.

As far as durability is concerned, the eVENT has greater durability in terms of the mechanical stresses of wear and tear. It's a heavier fabric that is bolstered by the adhering ePTFE membrane. Aside from carelessness, I cannot imagine a scenario in which a tare or abrasion would occur in a sleeping bag shell undergoing reasonable use. I believe that the durability of the hydrophobic properties of a fabric are a more important consideration.

I've never had a membrane-based fabric that didn't require frequent replenishing of its DWR properties (allows water to run of the fabric literally like "water off a duck's back".) If the bag looses its ability to repel water and water is naturally attracted to it's self, there is no physical reason for it to run off the fabric. If water is not able to run off the material and leave the surface dry than it is simply another layer that gaseous H2O must be driven through–a phenomenon heavily dependent on body heat.

In theory this should not be an issue with Epic fabric where each thread is given a silicone-like coating prior to being woven into a fabric. (Per my last conversation with FF, the true extent of this durability is not known due to the newness of this fabric and lack of long-term reports). The hydrophobic nature of Epic is amazing. Whenever I show off my bag I get at least a quart of water, hold the bag up at an angle and pour. All the water is shed perfectly. This prevents the water layer issue, facilitating better breathability.

So two issues with breathability. A membrane barrier and compromised DWR are hindrances. Epic has neither of these.

Like others who visit this site I have a lot of respect for Ryan Jordan and other contributors that give close examination to all gear weight and performance issues. However, I cannot understand any scenario, including temperature range, in which a membrane-based fabric is more breathable than one without a membrane. The membrane is a barrier, an impedance to liquid H2O entry and gaseous H2O exit. (I am not overlooking the claims that the membrane pores are much larger than a H2O molecule. I freeway has no stoplights but given enough cars traffic flow will slow.) Which fabric will have more and larger escape routes for gaseous H2O? Epic. Let me add that I would enjoy hearing opposing views and am not opposed to changing my position given enough evidence….I enjoy a good discussion.

I think there are good arguments for using fabrics with greater breathability when the precipitation encountered is frozen and using a garment with greater water resistance in cases of liquid precipitate.

With regards to the plan of wearing an eVENT jacket over a waterproof/breathable shell I could see some problem if this were done for extended periods. Water remains in the gaseous state as a result of heat. It's already taking a certain amount of heat to keep the H2O gaseous to make it through your shell layer. Than it enters your down insulating layer and hits the cold outer fabric. Is there still going to be enough heat to maintain the H2O in the gaseous state that is necessary to permeate the pores? I think this would be sketchy even with the Epic jacket.

No matter what you choose you’ll love your Volant.

David U.

I have sold and used both materials in the past, tho now sell neither one. I am just pointing out FUD.

There are many different varieties of fabrics to which
Epic treatment is applied. Some are very much more breathable (you can blow through them)
than eVent.

You have picked one
instance of use and one variety of fabric and extrapolated incorrectly to another use.

Read some of Richard Nisely's posts on breath-ability and
you will discover this to be the case.

"Whenever I show off my bag I get at least a quart of water, hold the bag up at an angle and pour. All the water is shed perfectly. "

That example doesn't take hydrostaic pressure into account.

Thought we were takling about JACKETS. (??)

"That example doesn't take hydrostaic pressure into account."

As it pertains to water permeating the fabric?

Gravity is providing a potential gradient, albeit, one that is tangential since the force of gravity is not perpendicular to the water. This is overcome by the hydrophobic properties of the fabric–the waters surface tension is greater than its adhesion to the fabric–to a point. There certainly is a pressure gradient that would force water through the fabric. I don't know what exactly that would be. Pressing up against a wet tent wall? Sitting on wet log? I used to know that lbs/sq. in. parameters for the Gore fabrics…but no more.

Have I misunderstood the point on hydrostatic pressure?

Ya pays more now but less over time plus you have true waterproofness and the best breathability.

This is the theory I'm working on. I've come to the conclusion that it's better to wait and spend the extra money on something that will last and that I like than to spend now and still end up wanting/replacing later. I'm just gathering information at the moment, as this purchase is a bit of a way off. Unless one pops up on ebay and nobody notices.

This is all good info to keep in mind. Breathability is definitely down on my list of concerns. This would be campwear, breakwear and part of a sleep system. In those both scenarios(but particularly for sleeping)I will have a set of vapor barrier top and bottoms to wear underneath to prevent moisture getting into the down.

Durability shouldn't be a huge issue for these uses, I don't think.

The biggest concern of mine would be water resistance, just so I don't need to be concerned about immediately throwing on my shell, or removing my shell so I can put the jacket on underneath it.

I appreciate everybody's help.

Ty, my thought was given that the fabric would be used in a jacket, wind driven snow / moisture creates a level of pressure against the fabric. EPIC as used by, for example, Black Diamond only has a hydrostatic head of about 800mm, whereas eVENT as used by, say, Integral Designs is 10,000mm. This would not be as big a concern with a sleeping bag unless the bottom of the bag got really wet, but it may be with a jacket. Given that you just poured some water on the EPIC, I don't think that would mimic the environment that a jacket shell may encounter. But of course, this would be dependent on what conditions (where and when) you hike.

For what its worth, I would go with EPIC for a sleeping bag material over eVENT. But not with a Jacket.

David, we are in complete agreement. When I used my sleeping bag example the principle I was trying to explain was related to the Epic fabric and its inherent resistance to water adhesion which I feel is superior to any DWR treatment I have seen. But applying that principle to a jacket must be considered alongside those pressure variables and environmental conditions you mention. Your point is well taken.

I think I will amend an earlier statement of mine about wishing my FF Volant jacket was made out of Epic. It's made out of a Gore fabric called ActiVent which is no longer produced under that name but was/is very similar to Gore Windstopper. I'm content with that.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion Ty. Much appreciated.

The original poster said that he was thinking about wearing the Feathered Friends down jacket over his WP/B shell. If this is true, then he has to consider that the lining of the down jacket (whether the exterior is made of eVent or Epic) that contacts the shell will be the same in either case: plain nylon taffeta. If the WP/B shell is wet, then there will be problems no matter which exterior fabric is chosen to encase the down.

Carter, thanks for pointing that out. It hadn't occured to me that in a situation I was wearing my shell, throwing a down garment over the shell would not be a great idea. So I'd either be wearing it over my baselayer, or under my shell, which is likely not sized to fit over it.

It's made out of a Gore fabric called ActiVent which is no longer produced under that name but was/is very similar to Gore Windstopper. I'm content with that.

Ty, I ,missed this the first time and thanks for mentioning it. That brings the Montbell Permafrost Parka into contention, as it has a GWS shell, 9oz of fill, box baffles, and weighs about the same as the hooded Volant in Epic. The only drawback(for me)is that the hood is permanently attached, which would prevent me from scavenging it for use as a balaclava with my quilt on trips where the temps didn't justify the whole jacket. (I have a BPL 60 Balaclava which is adequate but I'm not a fan of the face hole)

Montbell does have the advantage over FF that it can be had on sale or clearance, saving a good chunk of change.

I have used eVent, Epic and GTX clothing and can honestly say eVent is the most comfortable to wear over a broad spectrum of conditions that I have faced at least. A month ago I went out in a 40 degree rain storm with an eVent jacket and Epic pants. I was only out for 2 hours but the rain was coming down at a pretty good clip. Both Epic and eVent seemed comparably comfortable for the first few miles but close to an hour in my legs started to get alittle wet. By the time I was back to the car my legs were soaked. So in summary, I have found both Epic and eVent to be comparable to the non-scientific eye, but with eVent you will stay dry even in the worst rain storms. The only strong pro's I can find for Epic is it is more comfortable next to skin and drys extremely fast.

"The only strong pro's I can find for Epic is it is more comfortable next to skin and drys extremely fast."

Weight and cost are other major factors.

good point Dave, eVent is not kind to the wallet.

Feathered Friends does not seam seal their Volant jackets, though I have an event Volant FF was quite clear the jacket was not waterproof because of the unsealed seems but would perform very well for my intended purposes.

Jim, just as a point of information, the ActiVent fabric had serious delamination issues which is I'm sure one of the reasons it was discontinued. I had a water resistant jacket made from it and things got pretty ugly around the upper back and shoulders area where the jacket was always making contact with my under-layer. I don't have this concern with my down jacket because there is little contact between the outer, laminated fabric and the lining fabric (as you know the Volant is baffled and stuffed crazy full of down). Neither would I be concerned with delaminating issues with WindStopper. Call it blind faith but I would just assume that Gore has resolved this issue.

If I recall from your first post, one of your chief concerns was weather resistance and you cited a spectrum of conditions you may encounter. The limitations of WindStopper should be taken into consideration. I wouldn't want to submit my ActiVent down jacket to an extended sleet/snow mix. Then again the Volant is too warm (for my needs) in temps exceeding the low 20s when semi-frozen precipitate may occur. I'd happily stand corrected but as I understand it WindStopper is lower than DryLoft in the water-resistance hierarchy of Gore fabrics.