Sleeping system & clothing in winter

[Hendrik Morkel]

Roger, you got years more experience than me, so I am well advised to listen to you! I think I will give it a try and report here, as I usually camp close to campsites like these:

Sufficient wood with an axe and saw, a lean-to to fall back on, and usually within 5 or less kilometers from a street.

[s k]

Hi, Hendrik,

You've got a great thread going here.

After reading the thread, I think that most of what I add has at least been implied.

I don't know what kind of daytime temps you expect, or the temperature range of your comfort hiking in the base/shell combination. I also don't know the trail: woodland, open, flat, small hills etc.. But, I wonder about the breadth of adjustment in your on trail clothing selection.

Let's say you warm up from a sunny, windless, long, gentle, inline, or one of a thousand variations. You can vent your torso, but will you have issues with upper legs/inner thighs? What if the temps are too warm all day? Maybe the e-vent breathes better than I think, I've never experienced it.

If you're legs are chilling, from a twenty plus kph head wind that has the shell pants welded to your shin and thigh, I wonder if your warming options are too limited. The PLQ's will almost certainly be too warm, unventable, and probably a hassle to get on and off.

Finally, you don't have many pockets, and they seem small and tight.

In camp, I'm sure that you planning on wearing the down over the PLQ pullover. I assume that the pair are sized and fitted for tandem use and for the expected temperatures. While cooking, I would probably be chilled wearing the two. For any kind of activity, the pair won't be easy to vent. My feet would chill quickly in camp without substantial down foot ware, but you're younger. And I think you've only got two pockets, three if you count the PLQ underneath. Hand wear?

For sleeping, if the down insulation was a full zip, it could be positioned over your torso for a greater addition to the warmth to your sleep system. (Greater than sleeping in.) A substantial and removable hood would be ideal, especially if you end up using a quilt arrangement. Even with a warm hood when quilt sleeping, I find that my upper shoulders and neck are likely to chill at 0 F and below. It's hard for me to match a hooded sleeping bag's top of shoulder/neck warmth with a quilt. However, I prefer sleeping under a quilt.

I might add an anorak type garment, mid thigh/knee, deep zip, with pockets. An incremental step for hiking comfort, and protection for your down if you end up messing with fire, maybe ventile, something heavy enough that it wouldn't flap around in the wind. Fit would be a problem for those two uses, though. Also, I would hope to never remove or alter the base and shell through sleep, hike, and camp. Does e-vent breathe too well to act as a partial VB? Does a garment have to be full VB to be effective for moisture passage while sleeping. This has come up before, but I don't remember a discussion or answer.

Great thread, good tour, and I hope that you take the time to write it up!

[Roger Caffin]

Looks to me as though you could afford to take a few risks then. The amount of wind (which is a major killer) should not be great, and you can always retreat into the lean-to and light a fire for the night. Go for it!

Cheers

[James Dubendorf]

I've had good results in some prelimary tests with home made VB overalls (basic duct tape and heavy duty trash bag construction). They are much cheaper than an investment in VB clothing, and allow for use of clothing in your sleep system (unlike VBL bag liners). My current pair only extends to the armpits, but I'll be experimenting with more elaborate versions once it gets cold enough! This is a very easy and inexpensive way to experiment with the VB concept to see whether it works for you.

James

[Don Selesky]

"There's no reason why you can't use a quilt system in winter – we do."

Agreed. I use a Nunatak Arc Expedition for winter, with additional clothing or insulation as conditions dictate. I'll sometimes throw a lightweight bivy over it to seal it when it gets really cold.

"The use of a bivy bag over a quilt or SB does NOT mean the frost line will automatically be on the inside of the bivy bag surface, outside the SB."

Also agreed. That's one of the arguments for VBL.

"The use of VBL sack seems to be a bit incompatible with wearing down clothing to bed."

Also also agreed. It's pointless to trap the water vapor *inside* your clothing. When I'm out for more than a day or so I use VBL pants and shirt. Stephenson (Warmlite) at least used to make a VBL shirt and socks, and RBH Designs makes a variety of VBL clothing, although I wish it was lighter. FWIW, I can highly recommend their lightweight gloves with a VBL liner for normal hiking use. You can get them directly, or through BPL as the "FeatherLite Vapor Mitts". Haven't seen a need to use anything warmer than that yet…

My normal pattern is to put on the VBL pants and Parka (!) as soon as I hit camp, and add a down parka, etc., over them as needed.

[Don Selesky]

"we used a tent that was made virtually like a baffled sleeping bag but without insulation in the baffles"

Are you referring to a Stephenson tent? I use an older 2R for winter camping.

[Lynn Tramper]

No, Not Stephenson's. It was a proper double wall tent with a breathable inner wall, ability to completely seal out wind and snow, and four pole hoops where each hoop attachment acted as a baffle. It could handle snow loading like a champion. It was way too warm to use above freezing, but priceless at minus 40!

Of course, at minus 40, there is no such thing as a breathable wall as your breath never makes it that far before it freezes.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Hendrik,

As I see it there are 3 main options for winter sleeping bag SYSTEMS. Some are more flexible than others.

1. One Big Bag for coldest expected temps> (plus appropriate thickness long underwear & balaclava)

2. Two Bags> (one 3 season bag with wide girth and one summer bag with average to slim girth The U.S military uses this system with success but its a heavier option.)

3. Medium Winter Bag for, say -8 C. (add thicker [warmer] down or synthetic insulation pants & jacket as needed for colder temps)

#3 is likely the most weight efficient as it uses your jacket and pants for camp wear as well as for sleeping.

I have a -20 synthetic fill Mt'n. Hardware winter bag that has a side opening zippered gore to expand it & let me put my WM summer down bag inside. Never (yet) needed to use this option. Maybe this winter in the Rockies.

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