Mar 22, 2006 at 10:42 am #1218108
I’m working on a low-volume gear list (650ci/10l) for overnight trips. I might have room for a very small stove (such as Sgt. Rock’s Ion) if I can find a water bottle that can double as a pot. Something like a lexan Nalgene with screw lid, except made of thin aluminum or titanium.
REI carries the Kleen Kanteen, stainless steel, 8 oz. for 27 fl oz.; and the Coleman Expedition Apex fuel bottle, aluminum, 4.9 oz for 22 fl oz. Two questions about fuel bottles: are they uncoated, and are they thin enough to pass heat reasonably well? My SIGG fuel bottle (aluminum, 3.5 oz. for 20 fl oz.) appears to be rather thick. I’m also going to look at those aluminum energy drink cans with screw lids and try to find a 1-liter version.
Any suggestions? Any “out of the box” ideas?Mar 22, 2006 at 11:17 am #1353137
Rick DreherBPL Member
@halfturboLocale: Northernish California
Interesting question; are you looking to just heat water?
I’ll guess you could boil water in a Sigg bottle–I doubt the thickness would be a problem because aluminum conducts heat so well. Any exterior coating will scorch though, and if you’ve carried fuel in it the taste might be difficult to eliminate. Why not give it a try?
Sigg still makes aluminum bicycle-style drinking water bottles with screw-on pop-up tops (I don’t believe they make fuel bottles any longer). Such narrow bottles probably aren’t particularly efficient on a typical stove, but an extra ounce or two of fuel likely wouldn’t undo your weight savings.
Better would be one of the discontinued MSR titanium fuel bottles, should you be able to find one. They’re light, strong and have no coating of any kind.
I’ll venture a guess that there are probably “designer” aluminum liquor bottles you might press into service. Also, perhaps oddball food containers such as cooking oil, etc. Those marketing folks never sleep.Mar 22, 2006 at 12:16 pm #1353146
Ryan FaulknerBPL Member
I once got an energy drink can with a screw top, I have posted some pics of my energy drink can pots, this would be a little taller because you dont cu off the top, so if you dont think you would have a flat surface, I would not count on it, but it works perfectly with an elite style stoveMar 22, 2006 at 1:17 pm #1353158
The Sigg drinking bottles have some sort of coating so they don’t react with acidic stuff like citrus or tomato juice. I think you’ll find most of the aluminum food containers will have a coating.
So you want to carry water and cook in it too?
These guys sell uncoated aluminum containers with screw top lids. I might trust them for liquids in an outside pocket, but not inside.
I’ve seen stainless steel pot/cup gizmo’s that slide over the outside of a 1 liter Nalgene bottle, but they are too heavy. A titanium one would be great on a space saving basis.
I could imagine any manufacurer having kittens over the idea of some knumbskull putting their sealed container on the stove— big noise/short life expectancy!Mar 22, 2006 at 1:40 pm #1353160
I just want to boil water and maybe make jello, hot chocolate or really runny oatmeal. It’s only one or two meals, so I don’t have to get it clean in the field. My pack for this gear is a Mountainsmith Tour fanny with two mesh bottle holders on the sides, so I have room for a bottle but not a pot.
>I once got an energy drink can with a screw top
I saw your pics and they prompted me to go on a three-hour tour of the local grocery stores. I finally found aluminum Elements Energy bottle (18 fl. oz; 2.5 oz) and Budweiser beer bottle (16 fl. oz; 2.1 oz; no cap). I was hoping some vodka company might use an aluminum bottle, but no luck. The Elements bottle doesn’t appear to be coated, but it probably is. I’m going to boil water in it and see if the coating comes off. I also found aluminum sports bottles on-line in various sizes up to 1 liter, but my initial references were bulk purchases with company logos (which might be my solution especially if I can get the company to pay for them :). I’ll look further.
>I’ve seen stainless steel pot/cup gizmo’s that slide over the outside of a 1 liter Nalgene bottle
Ahh, there’s an idea! The 1 liter Nalgene hard-bottle (which also holds my UV Aquastar sterilizer) fits perfectly inside a Snow Peak Trek 700 Ti pot (6.3 oz + 4.8 oz = 11.1 oz), and for a lighter combo, various plastic bottles (including 18 oz. Power-Ade and 20.6 oz Trek sports drinks) fit tightly inside a 24 oz. Heineken keg pot (1.5 oz + 1.2 oz = 2.7 oz). The Trek 700 Ti and Heine pots fit in the mesh bottle pockets. The Power-Ade/Heine combo is 0.2 oz heavier than the Elements bottle for the same bottle volume, but the Heine pot has more bottom area and can boil more water than the Elements bottle. (It also won’t overflow on a rolling boil.) This seems like a better solution than a dual-use bottle/pot, at least until I can find a 1-liter uncoated aluminum wide-mouth bottle.Mar 22, 2006 at 3:41 pm #1353173
Ryan FaulknerBPL Member
>three-hour tour of the local grocery stores
sorry to have sent you on a wild goose chase. I guess they are not available everywhere.
Some may be interested in this screw top I once found at a 7-11 or gas station or something(usually find normal kinds at the grocery store)
Some interesting stove could probably be made with this kind of can, or of course it would work as the pot/water bottle. But I would not recomend using the lid for the pot mode, it would be too tightMar 23, 2006 at 1:07 pm #1353260
Inaki Diaz de EturaBPL Member
@inaki-1Locale: Iberia highlands
> I was hoping some vodka company might use an aluminum bottle, but no luck.
I once found this:
It holds 0.7 l. and weights 108 gr. or 3.8 oz (96 gr. without the cap). The bottom diameter is 7.5 cm.
The cap is liquid tight. I’ve boiled water in it at home but never tried it outside.Mar 23, 2006 at 2:14 pm #1353267
@bjamesdLocale: South Coast of BC
A consideration in any such undertaking is the characteristics of their coatings and components at temperature. Remeber that they’re only certified food-grade in their intended application; i.e. containing consumable liquids at perhaps than half of boiling temperature. (I don’t know that they’d fail at high temperatures, but *could* they?)
Supposedly, even disposable plastic drink bottles can become toxic when washed with scalding water, although I don’t know if I buy that one…
When I was 10, a kid in my class heated water in a paper cup over a burner as a science project. I can also remember reading in bushcraft manuals that water can be heated in large leaves — I’ve never tried that one out though. Could something we overlook serve this purpose? Suppose the water only needs to go to 80 degrees C: is there a membrane out there that’s heat-conductive enough that the water would protect it from combusting/degrading in the flame?
I’m thinking even of foil packages… that would be even better. Or could a drinking container be formed out of titanium foil, orikaso-style?
My 2 cents (CAD!)
EDIT: what about asking this question in reverse — can a titanium pot or mug be sealed for use as a water vessel? Sounds like an opportunity for a cottage industry; anybody?Mar 23, 2006 at 5:10 pm #1353288
@eaglembLocale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Boiling water or hard boiled eggs in a paper cup is a common Boy Scout competition. It works because water absorbs the heat from the cup bottom and walls well before it gets to 451F, the temperature that paper burns at.
There are a couple of issues:
1) It’s going to burn above the level where the water is because there’s little to keep the temperature from going above papers’ flash point.
2) You need an “exit strategy” on how you’re going to get the boiling water out of the cup, particularly if the top has burned off and the flames are still going (ie open fire)
I’ve tried this with an isopropane stove, it works fine on a low setting.
I assume it would also work with plastic, but haven’t tried it.
I have a picture of it, but don’t have a place to post it. I can email it if someone has a home for it and wants to post it.
MikeBMar 24, 2006 at 11:55 am #1353360
…..The 1 liter Nalgene hard-bottle (which also holds my UV Aquastar sterilizer) fits perfectly inside a Snow Peak Trek 700 Ti pot (6.3 oz + 4.8 oz = 11.1 oz),…..
That was my thought. I have a couple of the stainless cups that fit around a 1 liter Nalgene– they are 5+ ounces, but cheap and sturdy. They make them a lot thicker than need be. Campmor has them for $6 — search on “Olicamp Space Saver Cup”. They claim 4.7oz, but my recollection is over 5oz. I’ll check that if I can find them.
If you want to use a cup-sized Ti pot, why not just hang it off your fanny pack with a mini-biner? I don’t like stuff dnagling off my pack, but a cup shouldn’t make you too crazy. If you don’t want the weight of the UV sterilizer and the obligatory container, you could go to Aqua Mira and recycled plastic bottles, dropping about 9 ounces off what must be a tiny load.
I measured my Olicamp cups: one came in at 5.1oz, the other 5.3oz. Removing the handles drops the weight by 0.9oz. Still not bone crushing heavy and a great starter pot for someone on a budget– $6 beats $30-$40 on a Ti pot and it does slip nicely around the Nalgene. It needs a little tin foil for a lid.Mar 25, 2006 at 10:03 am #1353408
>Boiling water or hard boiled eggs in a paper cup is a common Boy Scout competition.[…]I assume it would also work with plastic, but haven’t tried it.
This is the same problem mentioned by an earlier poster: chemical toxins in the bottle or lining. It’s probably OK for boiling eggs, but I intend to drink the water so I don’t want bad stuff in it.
I’ll keep looking for an uncoated metal bottle, but at this point a separate plastic water bottle and untralight pot seems the best solution.Mar 25, 2006 at 10:10 pm #1353450
We’ve been talking about pots, but the stove should be looked at. With the low volume kit(and I really like that concept a lot), an Esbit wing stove and fuel would be easier to stow and might make for more pot options. I’d go for the Nalgene and a Ti pot that fits around it.
Other water carrying options? Find a lumbar hydration bag with enough extra storage capacity– you don’t have to fill the bladder all the way either.Mar 26, 2006 at 12:05 am #1353452Mar 26, 2006 at 9:19 am #1353461
>With the low volume kit(and I really like that concept a lot), an Esbit wing stove and fuel would be easier to stow and might make for more pot options.
Sgt. Rock’s Ion kit (1.2 oz) includes stove, pot stand, windscreen, base reflector and stuff sack. That’s less than my Esbit wing stove alone (1.3 oz), although the BPL Ti wing stove is lighter than mine. Fuel wouldn’t be very heavy either way, as I’d carry 2 fl oz of alcohol v. two Esbit tabs.
>Find a lumbar hydration bag with enough extra storage capacity
This is a lumbar pack, but I suppose it could be replaced. I’m afraid I might not have enough volume if I lost 1-2 liters of internal space, while the Tour has two 1-liter water pockets on the outside.
One reason for choosing the UV Aquastar over Aqua Mira is that I can sterilize water and drink it immediately. This way I can tank up at streams and still have 2 liters for dry camping, whereas with AM I wouldn’t have as much left in camp. It also allows me to carry only 1 liter of water when streams are frequent, which is a weight savings of 2 pounds.
Equipment is always open to reconsideration, of course, and once I’ve got a stable kit I’ll see if I can make system changes that save weight.
>Anon wrote: Maybe These?: http://www.freundcontainer.com/catalog.asp?category=89
The largest cylinder is 700ml, and the weight unknown. I expect I’d have to add some plastic wrap to keep the water from leaking out through the threads. Anybody know the weight?Mar 27, 2006 at 11:35 am #1353547
They are really thin gauge– lighter than a fuel bottle or any pot, and just a bit more than a beer can. I don’t think I have the 700ml one to weigh. I make percussion instruments and I bought a bunch of samples from Freund to test as shakers.
The lids have the usual plastic/cardboard seal that you find in something like a mayonaise jar lid. A little reseach may come up with a flat rubber washer, or Freund may be able to supply one. A thin layer of silicone might do the trick too. You could make a spreader to rest on the lid edge to apply it to a consistent thickness.
The threads are a little dicey– prone to jamming. You can actually jam them by trying to twist too hard. I guess the can deforms.
They are cheap and they are light– no doubt there.Oct 17, 2006 at 9:28 pm #1365045Nov 6, 2006 at 5:32 pm #1366369
So, following this thread, my sons and I did a little experimenting. We found “Energy” drink cans and boiled water in them using different types of lightweight stoves. An Altoids box alcohol stove boiled 532 ml of water in 10 minutes. It used about 2 1/2 capfuls of alcohol from a lexan fuel hip flask.
How can I add pics to this post? I’ve now integrated the Energy bottle, a solar lexan water bottle, an alcohol cum esbit stobe into a fanny pack and have pics to prove it. It’s really an interesting mobile kitchen that doubles as a solar hot water collector.
ThanksNov 7, 2006 at 6:28 am #1366405
I’ve considered trying a Klean Kanteen (as DF mentioned) as a combo water bottle / pot.
Michael, when composing a post there is a ‘insert image at cursor’ button that will allow you to upload images.Nov 7, 2006 at 8:51 am #1366426
I tried both the Jolt can and the Energy can and prefer the latter: the walls are stronger, the lid screws on tighter, and at 532 ml, it balances in my fanny pack better with the 500 ml lexan bottle:
The Altoids stove can be used alone but I bought a $5.00 esbit stove and pellets for backup. Nestled inside the esbit stove, the Altoids burner has a ready-made windscreen:
And finally, this is my solar water heater. I just spray painted half of a clear Nalgene bottle with flat black paint after taping, leaving the volume indicators unpainted. On a sunny day here in Wisconsin, the water will heat up to 110 deg F, not enough to sterilize but enough to save fuel:
Oh, from my first post: that’s “stove” not “stobe”!Nov 7, 2006 at 9:00 am #1366427
@pjLocale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Very creative. Good Job.Nov 7, 2006 at 9:19 am #1366431
Michael, when you said “on a sunny day” did you mean while hiking with it in your fanny pack? Or do you need to set it out for a while?Nov 7, 2006 at 10:39 am #1366436
I have to set it out. Come to think of it, if I replaced the netting with clear plastic on the lumbar pack that may not be an issue. That will be my next experiment.Apr 1, 2007 at 2:27 pm #1384455
.Apr 2, 2007 at 4:44 pm #1384610
@jasonklassLocale: Parker, CO
Thanks for that link. It's a great site. Do you think they give samples to just anyone?Apr 5, 2007 at 10:43 am #1384938
I purchased some Platys today and read the tips on the wrapping for the first time. They said you can both heat and freeze water in a Platy. Actually, I doubt that you can simply place your Platy over an Esbit or alcohol stove and heat the water inside – has anyone made experiences with that? Or is there anyone who would like to try it with an old Platy?
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