layering in the Pacific NW

Roger,
Absolutely I’d be interested. You could even up the temperature range to 40 or so. I’ve never found a good technique for those conditions…

Lows in the 40’s and rain every day for weeks on end … ahh … I love this kind of weather.

Five of us spent 1 1/2 months kayaking the Alaska coast last year in this type of weather. Each of us stayed warm, dry, and happy every day. The possibly surprising part is that we each used different combinations of contemporary insulations and moisture protection fabrics.

I for one would love to see an article on this subject. It might be entitled, “Not bad weather, just not appropriate clothing combinations”.

Richard, would be curious for a breakdown of how you all did it…

I have found it more breathable than most other materials, not as good as eVENT. With vents open with the Peak, and no vents on the eVENT jacket, I was able to manage moisture better with the Peak. It seems about as breathable as my rainshield o2 which is still my choice when I am not worrying about durablity or continuous hard rain.

I have been pretty happy with the Peak jacket, but it’s not a magic bullet. When working hard I can still overwhelm the breathability. It isn’t as comfortable as my softshell when it’s not raining. But I have no plans to replace it until someone releases a miracle jacket.

“And that about summarises it all, doesn’t it?”

Well… theres still some wiggle room of course ;)

“Do I take it that a review article on clothing AND other gear for such cold wet miserable conditions would be of some interest? I’m not talking about specific single items of gear but about techniques. If there is interest, we will try to work on it.”

…lets just say, more articles like this would get me re-assessing BPL membership.

>I’m thinking here of trips lasting a number of days, with the weather in the 32 – 36 F range with rain. Pretty harsh conditions in which to stay comfortable.

32°-36°F and raining is indeed harsh, especially with a strong wind. I’d check into a hotel and wait until the things got warmer. But drizzly weather at 40°-45°F is just fine with me, for weeks on end, in fact. No problems finding drinking water in conditions like this.

The way I deal with these conditions is:

1. Wear river sandals. The feet can easily tolerate 40°F drizzle without any protection. It takes some psychological adjustment to feel comfortable with bare feet in these conditions, but no physical adjustment (extra blood supply or whatever) is required, at least in my experience. You’ll avoid funguses and all sorts of other problems by using sandals. Shoes are a disaster in non-stop rain.

2. Wear a huge poncho or waterproof rain jacket (not merely water-resistant), and use a rain hat of some sort instead of the poncho or rain jacket hood (the rain hat can be water-resistant only, since you have the rain jacket hood as a backup for heavy rains). This way it will be as though you are walking around in a shelter at all times. Your poncho or rain jacket should extend past your hands. If the jacket does not extend past your knees, then add rain pants.

3. Don’t overdress underneath the rain gear. A supplex shirt and insulated vest and insulated bomber hat is plenty of insulation for the top, at least when you are moving. Thermal underwear tends to be much too warm when walkig uphill, especially in the armpits and groin areas. Everything gets sweat-soaked and you begin to feel miserable. Learn to tolerate being slightly cool. Cool but dry is not dangerous.

4. Add an insulated jacket if you plan to take rest stops. Personally, I don’t bother with rest stops. Instead, I just keep walking until I reach a campsite. Then I crawl under my quilt and lie there for 14 hours or so until the next morning rolls around.

The article would be of interest to me as well. Please write one. Many thanks.

Yes, an in depth article about gear/layering systems in prolonged cold rain/high humidity would be great!

I’d love to see an article on this.

I’ve noticed for a long time that there’s an UL PCT list, and then there’s a PCT Washington list for a lot of through-hikers. They get to Washington in the early fall and a different list emerges. Even Ray’s famous 8.44lb. list swelled by 50% to 12+ when he got to Washington. Ryan touched on this with the Scotland conditions piece, but a full-blown wet/fall/spring/Cascade/Alaska/New Zealand/Olympics/UK article would be fantastic!

-Curt

I would love to see an article on this, as I will be moving to Portland this Summer. I’ve day-hiked a dozen times year-round there, and overnighted once on Mt. Hood in the summer above treeline, but otherwise am inexperienced and apprehensive about prolonged multi-day wet weather. I feel pretty good about my hiking clothing, (smartwool baselayer, Pertex windshirt, Fleece Midlayer, Drop-Stoppers rain suit, Go Lite Umbrella), but my concern is over my sleep system.

At http://www.ryanjordan.com, Ryan describes his rain gear for a November hike of the Wonderland Trail around Mt. Rainier. I would be very curious to see his sleep system gear list. And I really want his eVENT rain gloves!!

I could actually use some advice before any such article is written, as I just purchased an eVENT bivy at REI using my %20 discount and still can’t decide if it’s the right thing for me (discount expires April 2, so I have a limited window to exchange/return it). I know Ryan likes the eVENT bivys for especially wet, windy, cold conditions, and I have decided that I want the added protection of a fully waterproof breathable bivy for the PNW. But I can’t decide between the ID eVENT Unishelter or the ID eVENT Micro Bivy.

Here’s what I anticipate my hiking conditions to be based on my schedule and comfort level: multi-day trips above treeline in the summer, over-nighters in the Spring and Fall, and low elevation day hikes in the Winter.

I do very much like to get above treeline in the PNW, as I can get bored with endless trees with no view. For overnighters, I like the idea of camping at the highest point of the hike. For example, when I did Mt. Hood last September, I started at 2000′ and hiked to 7000′, where I camped out for spectacular views. I wouldn’t have wanted to dip back below treeline, where I had spent most of the day, nor would I have wanted to setup camp, climb high for sunset, come back down for camp, climb back up for sunrise, then climb back down to break camp. I really like the idea of watching sunset and sunrise without getting out of my quilt (a homemade down quilt with 3” of loft and a Teflon DWR top).

But when I woke up the next morning, the clouds had rolled in and I felt unprepared had high winds and rain picked up. So I need a system that gives me great views, and that I can hunker down into if a storm picks up. I don’t think I need an ID eVENT tent, because if the weather is already bad, I wouldn’t risk camping high in the first place and would stay below treeline. Also, flat spaces are hard to find on the side of a volcano, so the smaller the footprint the better.

My initial thoughts were to purchase the ID eVENT Unishelter, so that I can enjoy the spectacular views right from my sleeping area, and if the weather does turn bad overnight, I simply have to zip up for the night. No worries about a tarp being blown down. I don’t have a problem with confined spaces (I find I mostly lie in one position in a tent anyway), and since this is a solo hike setup, I don’t need lounge space. I don’t cook in my shelter, so that’s not a problem either. With my full rain gear setup plus umbrella, I don’t feel as much a need for a tarp for rest stops. I especially don’t like how much time I spend fiddling with gear when hiking, so the simplicity of setup is very attractive, and I find setting up a tarp for a rest stop to be too much work for what it’s worth. But again, I don’t have much wet weather experience.

This setup has a few problems. For starters, it’s 31oz. Add a GG groundsheet and stakes, and my calculations bring it up to 33.3oz. I do hike with an GoLite Umbrella (modified to attach to my hiking pole), so I could conceivably use that to enter and exit the bivy in rain. But am I being too optimistic about this setup? In constant rain, I will probably eventually want a tarp with this setup. Plus, without a tarp, the eVENT might be more prone to develop condensation. And in the summer, the small mesh screen will probably leave things pretty stuffy. So it seems a tarp is still needed for more versatility, but adding even a 7.5oz tarp brings the setup to 42oz (with more stakes). I might as well get an ID MK1 Lite eEVENT tent. The $285 price tag on the bivy isn’t too attractive, either. Or I could bring my 41oz Tarptent Rainshadow, stay below treeline, and enjoy a breathable palace.

So I opted instead to purchase an ID Micro Bivy (18.5oz) for $185 plus %20 off, with the assumption that I could make a 3oz spinnsheet awning of sorts with a simple pully-like system to raise and lower the tarp, and save 11.oz over the Unishelter.But even then I worry that a small awning would be enough. I am particularly worried that the rain that beads up on the bivy could pour down into the head opening. Thus I should probably bring a full-sized tarp.

So now I have a nice WP/B bivy, but I must bring a tarp, which ruins the whole point of a wp/b bivy for me, which is great views. So am I better off just sticking with a Pertex Quantum bivy and larger tarp and save even more weight? I’ve got my eye on the prototype Alphamid Nano.

To confound things, I purchased a Hennessy Hammock Ultralight Backpacker Asym (31oz) in December with the idea that it would keep me above all the mud and muck, and away from small streams that may form (after all, how many of my nights will truly be spent above treeline?). It would also keep me from the overused muddy campsites. But at 6’2”, I find it a bit too confining, it arches my back a little too much, and I can’t find a comfortable position on my side. But I just can’t justify the added weight of the next size up.

I’ve thought and thought about these setups, and none is a perfect situation. I’ve also learned that 5 minutes of experience is more informative than a week of calculations, but these are all expensive items, and I must internet-order the bivys from REI as my local stores do not stock them. My head starts spinning with all the variables, and I’m at the point where I’m incapable of making a decision. Help!

Moving to Vancouver (Canada, north of Seattle) from Calgary (north of Montana; similar to Denver I’m told) was a huge eye-opener for me. I thought I had clothing and shelter systems pretty much dialed for any weather including the wet… yah right.

My suggestion is this: hike in this climate before you spend another dollar! You will get lots of advice (and an article on PNW “rainforest” hiking would definitely be welcomed! Come spend 5 days in the bush up here in November guys! Do it SUL!) but I can’t stress enough that you must see it/slither and slide through it to believe it.

There are many conditions (all year round) under which your gear simply will not dry itself. It will not vent condensation or perspiration. It will not perform as advertised. Single-walled tents, bivy sacks, and tarp camping *can* and *are* done here, (by me sometimes,) but they do need to be carefully considered in this climate: 100% humidity in the constant thick darkness of the forest, 24-hour rain, muck and slime and moss and rot as your trail and your lunch spot and your campsite, all at a steady 40 F… you might as well be living underwater.

For reference: in Calgary I hung my clothes to dry for about 4 hours in my house. Here, jeans in my heated apartment take 2 days. In a dark forest at 40F with mist floating by and rain floating down? Evaporation is for scrabble!

Yes: the Hilleberg Akto is obscenely heavy by BPL standards. And yes: it can also be worth every blessed ounce. Depending on conditions, depending on hiker, depending on skill, depending on attitude, YMMV!

Happy hiking.

Brian

>To confound things, I purchased a Hennessy Hammock in December with the idea that it would keep me above all the mud and muck… But I just can’t justify the added weigh of the next size up.

And just to make that decision harder, I’m also 6’2″ and use the “next size up” (Hennessy Ultralight Explorer) in the Olympics and it keeps me dry (and warm with bottom insulation) while everybody else has these little squishy pools around their tent. (Poor choice of tent spot on their part, but after an extra mile of looking they were no longer picky.)

Brian James said: “Moving to Vancouver (Canada, north of Seattle) from Calgary (north of Montana; similar to Denver I’m told) was a huge eye-opener for me. I thought I had clothing and shelter systems pretty much dialed for any weather including the wet… yah right.”

Try Cape Scott Park at the very northern tip of Vancouver Island. There was a huge sign in the trail head parking lot warning people to have proper gear for the weather. For every line on the list, I could see ten nitwits who went into the woods with cotton clothes and a $20 tent from Walmart. Yes, most of them probably Yanks too :)

You can have a good time. I say there are a thousand kinds of rain. You can have a slug hunting contest on the way– longest, fattest, weirdest color.

You haven’t lived until you come down a trail wanting to get back to the car, and land your heel on a slug and slide three feet on one foot, with your arms flailing and landing in three inches of cold mud. The real dancers of the lot end up doing the splits– really funny with a pack on.

Rainwater drains down the hills, with the switchbacks cutting through the aquifer and making it easy for the run-off to go straight down the trail. Slog, splash, slide, grooooaaaaan.

Imagine a vertical swamp. It’s easy if you try :)

>>And just to make that decision harder, I’m also 6’2″ and use the “next size up” (Hennessy Ultralight Explorer) in the Olympics and it keeps me dry (and warm with bottom insulation) while everybody else has these little squishy pools around their tent. (Poor choice of tent spot on their part, but after an extra mile of looking they were no longer picky.)

Wow, lesson learned. Perhaps I need two shelters; one for when I stay predominantly in the forest (Hennessy), and one where I stay above treeline (Unishelter). Now what to do about those hikes that do both equally???

Whatever happened to all those posters touting the wonders and beauty of the PNW? Care to chime in? =).

Perhaps we need to start an alternate thread: what are your favorite EASTERN Cascades hikes? Where have you sucesfully gotten out of the muck when the ‘westerners’ have been stuck?

I’m beginning to think an extra hour’s drive east is worth it, even for a weekender!

>”You haven’t lived until you come down a trail wanting to get back to the car, and land your heel on a slug and slide three feet on one foot, with your arms flailing and landing in three inches of cold mud.”

This brings up yet another issue that could be explored in future BPL articles: What are the best method’s for increading traction in muddy conditions? I’ve seen studded shoe attachments (like blunt cleats), metal spring attachements (they look like snow chains), and of course instep crampons. My thoughts are that the instep crampons would dig deepest into the mud, and could be also used in the snow and ice. But I can also imagine them getting in the way when it’s not muddy or only muddy in patches.

>Now what to do about those hikes that do both equally???

I’m going to see how the Hennessy works when staked out as a bivy above the treeline when we do the Wonderland trail this September. Sgt. Rock has some pix of his set up as a bivy. If it doesn’t work out, I’ll use my Six Moon Designs Gatewood Cape, which I’ll be carrying anyway for rain gear.

> Whatever happened to all those posters touting the wonders and beauty of the PNW? Care to chime in? =).

Sure :) As long as you have never hiked anywhere else, you just don’t know any better than to camp out in the rain. Now I live in Wyoming, but I still head back to Washington (Olympics, western Cascades) to hike as often as I can. In the rain. (Never hiked in the eastern Cascades…)

> John Carter said: Whatever happened to all those posters touting the wonders and beauty of the PNW?

The country is incredible. A lot of the coastal mountains are truly vertical: you work oh-so-hard and are rewarded often with incredible sweeping views. Is 3000 vertical feet an hour interesting enough for you?

Walking in the wet is fun in a different way. The forest is *alive* like a rainforest. The ocean is another world unto itself. And there are many, many sunny days. I even heard once that NYC gets more rain in a year than Vancouver!

It’s just that, like on any trip, you must be prepared. And the opinions, advice, and gear lists of flatlanders/midwesterners/temperate region hikers can be very challenging to apply in any season out here.

Since moisture management (day and night) is very personal, you kind of have to go out and move in the bush here before you can really find what works for you. Being 6’0/190 and a human furnace, I have surprised the crap out of myself by freezing my balls off in every single season: including glorious summer. I had to throw everything I had known since childhood out the window and re-learn about my own physiology, diet, cadence, and energy expenditure patterns. Now I’m pretty skilled at managing myself, but what works for me won’t work for most people! And the same is probably true for you…

Brian

What about sheet metal screws in the bottom of your shoes? I’ve often wanted do try this, but never gotten around to it.

The objective miseries keep out the hordes– the rain, the mud, the devil’s club— and then you break out of the dark, dank (but beautiful) rain forests into unsurpassed alpine scenery. The hardier of us get out of the sloppiest parts in one death march long day and don’t have to camp in the most humid conditions down in the valleys and canyons and primeval forests. The moisture management picture looks a lot rosier from up high. If worst comes to worst, go east (of the crest), young man.

Kevin, Brian, thanks for your encouraging words. I agree that once you get above treeline, nothing compares (I was at Mt. Baker last summer as well as Mt. Hood; incomparably beautiful). Douglas, my only concern with the Hennessy as a bivy is that it doesn’t have a waterproof bottom. I tried setting mine up in my backyard and was unconvinced that it would protect me in a seious downpour, particularly with only 4 tie down points. But I’d love to hear about your experiences, particularly if you use a different tarp with 6 tie-out points.

Yeah, I know I should wait before buying any of the gear. But I’m so impatient, and the sale is sooo tempting!! =) Plus I want to get out alot this summer once I move. But I guess the wrong gear on sale is still too expensive!

>Douglas, my only concern with the Hennessy as a bivy is that it doesn’t have a waterproof bottom.

If there is a chance of going to ground I’d definitely bring a Gossamer Gear small Polycryo groundsheet, 1/8″ (or 3/8″) ThinLight pad, and NightLight torso pad (or BMW TorsoLite). That’s an additional 7.4 oz of gear for ground sleeping.

> I tried setting mine up in my backyard and was unconvinced that it would protect me in a seious downpour, particularly with only 4 tie down points.

The Jacks R Better SilNyl Tarp or HH hex tarp would give more protection for an additional 2 oz or 11 oz, but I’ll probably just use my Gatewood Cape (and GG Polycryo, ThinLight and NightLight/TorsoLite).

I need to do some testing, since I’ve never used the Gatewood Cape or the HH on the ground.

I used my HH on the ground one windy and rainy night in the Colorado Rockies. One end was tied to a tree with the other three corners staked out. The ground was wet before I set up but it was never a problem after that. I was careful to pick a high spot so I would not have any additional water under me. The bottom would have failed otherwise. I was on a full length pad so maybe I was unaware of water seeping through the bottom. Ignorance is bliss in that case. In short, the setup was dry and stable. Sorry to get off topic.

More tangential comments on the hammock… Seems like it could be a good PNW solution, with some more ventilation and livable space.

I’m not sure who mentioned the over-arching in their Hennesy, but you might want to look into making your own hammock–a longer length can help you lay a little flatter. Check out Risk’s page for a simple $10 DIY hammock project. I splurged on a light nylon fabric from Wal-Mart and mine came about to about 12oz and $15. With the money you save, you can reinvest in a more storm-worthy tarp than the Hennesy standard.

About hammock bivying–If you do something like a JRB nest underneath, you won’t be as bivyable. For one, you’d crush the down. The humidity may get to the down as well–can any PNW hammockers speak to this?

But you could still have that bivy ability if you go the full-length pad route, like one of the wider full-length pads from Oware or Gossamer Gear [coming soon]. If you used the pad outside the hammock bottom, would you still need the groundsheet?
-Mark

Thanks, Mark, for the helpful comments. So long as we are off topic… I have indeed been thinking about making a custom hammock since Christmas (I purchased the 6′ and shorter hammock with the idea in mind that this would become my wife’s hammock (who doesn’t trust my sewing!) and my learning curve hammock, and I would make a longer, lighter one later. But then I got all concerned that the lighter weight materials I intend to use (1.1 DWR nylon, nanoseeum mesh, AirCore Pro bear hanging rope), wouldn’t hold up to my 210lb weight. I guess I just have to lose a little weight and try later.

I tried the oware pad and decided the 60×40 was too cumbersome in the hammock (makes too many folds and wrinkles and is very tacky, and is really too big for packing). I think the best solution for the PNW is a segmented pad extender such as the Speer SPE. I made my own version and it got rid of the wrinkle issue and makes the foam more packable. Having tried it with the Oware foam, my Thermarest ProLite 3 short, and my Big Agnes Insulated Air Core, I thought the Thermarest was most comfortable. Though slightly heavier than all-foam, it would be more packable and comfortable in bivy form. I will also look into gossamer gear’s wider pads when they are available mid-April (love that evazote foam).

Incidentally I decided to return the eVENT bivy today. I figure a larger tarp pitched really low with plenty of stakes and a good DWR bivy should keep me dry and save substantial weight, which is really what this is all about (otherwise I’d bring the TT Rainshadow). And I realized I was making a serious fallacy in my reasoning that the Unishelter would give me better views; sure it would be nice on a clear night, and convenient if a storm breaks out later that night, but once it begins raining I have NO view at all, whereas with a tarp I’d still have some visibility.

I think my plan now is to make my own 7oz bivy (thru-hiker.com), lose some weight, then make my own longer hammock (hopefully 26oz). For lower elevation rainy trips I’ll use the hammock, for above treeline I’ll bivy. If I really indend to to both eqally, I’ll bring both; replacing the GG groundsheet with a bivy will only add a net 6oz. It’ll give me splash resistance under the hammock tarp and added wind resistance under my hammock pads. And the weight of both adds up to the weight of the Unishelter alone.

Someday I plan to write a book on this subject, but in the meantime here is some anicdotal advice based on my wilderness experiance in the Washington Olympics.
I started hiking in Search and Rescue where our basic training consisted of 48 hours in the 31-35 degree continious rain and sleet. We were all poor teenagers so we all wore non breathable raingear and cheap polypropelene baslayers with fleece or a wool sweater in between. You just planned on your clothes being wet, and everything was synthetic so it didn’t absorb water. We used pretty warm synthetic sleeping bags and crawled into them in our damp baselayres and took everything but our raingear to bed with us, and it all dried out overnight. During the day you dressed to be cool inside your raingear and opened up whatever you could whenever you weren’t in head high brush to let a bit of moisture out. Everyone carried a 10×12 tarp and we all hated double wall tents because of the massive condensation on the inner tent. We would set up a huge tarp, big enough to do everything under and totally protect us without any need to touch the tarp. We often didn’t carry stoves and our only source of heat was our own metabolism. We were always damp but never got to cold.
The two remarkable things really were the big tarp and the acceptance that insulation would be damp. A tarp that gives you lot’s of out-of-the-rain shelter still beats every tent I’ve ever used when it comes to prolonged rain in my opinion. And just planning on clothes and a sleeping bag that would be adequatly warm even when damp meant really we could go on no matter what for as long as necessary. Admittedly our packs were pretty heavy, but the same principles with some improved technology could be quite workable I think, and that’s pretty much what I’m trying now.