Lands End Down Jacket 14oz.?????

Do you have a link to this product? At 14oz total weight, it's hard to imagine that it has enough 700 fp down to keep your warm at -10 F.

You might be better off to go with something like Montbell's Alpine Light jkt at 11oz:
http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?p_id=2301289

$75 is a good deal but it won't feel that way if next summer you realize you can save a few more ounces with another jacket and you end up selling this and buying something else. With down gear, it's best to get high end stuff the first time instead of buying mediocre gear and then replacing it. I don't know much about this jacket so I shouldn't say it's mediocre, but if they are using 700 down then they probably weren't too concerned with weight so it likely has heavier fabrics and zippers too. I would wager that the 11oz montbell which uses 30D nylon and 800 fp is just as warm or warmer despite being 3oz lighter. You might be able to find a good deal on one of these for $100-$125.

http://www.landsend.com/pp/SnowPack700DownJacket~198978_59.html?bcc=y&action=order_more&sku_0=::BLA&CM_MERCH=IDX_00001__0000000043&origin=index

80 percent down, 20 percent feather fill.

Joseph,

Land’s End publishes the TEMPERATURE RATING: -10° to 15° Fahrenheit. They go on to say this as a comfort range for the type of climate you'll be wearing this SnowPack Jacket in while wearing a typical winter wardrobe. They have a “learn more” link which adds, “The high and low temperatures (Fahrenheit) associated with each rating represent a comfort range you can expect the garment to perform well in. All our ratings are based on wearing typical cool weather clothing, including a cotton turtleneck, wool sweater and jeans.” In a prior print catalog they further explained their rating system by saying, “How do we determine a jacket’s Temperature Rating? Our lab tests the jacket on a “copper man”, modeled after a mannequin originally built by the U.S. Army to develop clothing systems to keep soldiers warm in extreme conditions. Outfitted with wires and sensors, our copper man braves subzero temperatures wearing various Lands’ End jackets and coats, and “reports” back to us about how warm an individual item kept him. From that data, we create a comfort range that makes choosing the right jacket for your needs easier.

I did a substantial amount of reverse engineering to answer your question. The Iclo value for this jacket is .906. It is very near the warmth of the often used Patagonia PGD Pullover at 1.060 (13 oz) and substantially warmer than a MB Thermawrap Parka at .77 (12.8 oz). With the clothing they specified plus this jacket and a hat the average male would be comfortable doing sustained camp chores (1.5 MET) in the range 54F to 41F. Contrasted with the MB UL Inner at 1.78 Iclo and 7.3 oz it is not close to being a weight/warmth leader but it is close to being a cost/warmth leader for the activity and temp range that I specified.

Lands End and LL Bean both use the Institute for Environmental Research lab at Kansas State to measure their jacket’s warmth. Their insulation measurements are extremely accurate. The advertising copy says in part COPPER MAN REPORTS BACK TO US (insulation value) – From that data WE CREATE A COMFORT RANGE. On 11/3/09 Roger Caffin responded to a forum post regarding silnylon. His response in part was, “I suspect there is a lot of waffle and crap circulating in the world …YUP

The trip I am planning to use this jacket on the night time temps will be in the teens and possibly lower.

I will be wearing a Expedition weight Polartec Power Dry 1/4 zip top and a short sleeve synthetic or Merino wool shirt under that. A Toboggan as well.

How about the Mont-Bell Alpine Light, Marmot Zues or the LL Bean UL 850?

Joseph

Richard quoted Land's End thus:
'All our ratings are based on wearing typical cool weather clothing, including a cotton turtleneck, wool sweater and jeans.'

I can't help commenting that this sort of clothing clearly puts Land's End into the macho/street yuppie market, rather than the serious backcountry market. Mind you, their yuppie market may be a bit larger (and have more $$) than ours.

Chees

I've got both the marmot zeus and the montbell UL down inner, though they are both recent acquisitions and haven't been put to any kind of a serious test yet. Having said that, the zeus is clearly going to work for about 10-15F lower temps than the montbell UL. Wearing a light baselayer on top of a tee shirt I'd guess that the montbell will keep me warm to around the 35-40F range combined with a fleece cap, the marmot probably down to 20-25F, maybe lower, assuming light camp chores. The montbell alpine light seems to be roughly equivalent to the zeus, maybe a little warmer. I haven't seen the new LL Bean jackets yet, though I've heard from others that they are nicely made, serious outdoors garments.

I'm interested in the L.L Bean Ultralight 850 and have just sent them an email requesting weight, fill, ripstop thickness, etc. I'll report back when I hear from them. Looks very full featured with lots of pockets, drawstrings, etc. which may mean extra weight over the standard UL offerings. However, I'm a fan of L.L. Bean's customer service & return policy which doesn't get much better.
**UPDATE from L.L. Bean**
The 850 down jacket is filled with 850 down fill. I am not able to verify how that is measured per ounce. The down is in the sleeves, collar and body and is good to -25 degrees in moderate activity and 25 degrees in light activity.
The thickness of the ripstop shell is 1.4 oz per sq. yard. The outer fabric is 100% nylon.
As far as DWR coatings, my information states: Quilted nylon treated with DWR for water repellency.
The jacket weighs approximately 1 pound.

Richard, how do these "mid-layer" down pieces fare when worn under a soft or hard shell? Does this slight compression reduce their warmth significantly as compared to a synthetic?

Joseph,

None of your alternatives meet the specified criteria. I suggest you consider any of the light weight down jackets in the fill class of 5 – 6 oz, at minimum.

5-6oz of down is going to make for a very toasty jkt.

James,

LL Bean defines the activities for their temperature ratings as follows, "Our comfort ranges are based on tests simulating a 28-year-old man of average build wearing appropriate layers. When a range is shown, the first temperature indicates the product's comfort rating during light to moderate activity, such as walking slowly. The second temperature indicates the comfort rating during moderate activity, such as jogging a short distance or snowshoeing. When selecting outerwear or footwear, please consider your personal response to cold, your ACTIVITY LEVEL and local weather conditions."

They offer much warmer jackets than the UL850 if your activity level will be lower than used in either of the two ratings.

Dan,

Toasty… hmmmm

Alternative Advice

The Eddie Bauer First Ascent has an Iclo value of ~2.41. Why wasn’t hikerjer toasty?

James,

The mid-layer down pieces work great under a shell. The slight compression does not reduce the insulation value. The shell provides incremental "0 weight insulation" by creating additional still air pockets in line with the sewn through baffling seams. This increases the insulation value.

Thanks for all your help her Richard. Now, I AM curious in why Hikerjer was not toasty while on the move in that jacket? Is it just his personal comfort level or is there something I'm missing in his story?

James,

Look at the spread sheet segment that I included in my answer to Joseph. Since the EB Ascent ~Iclo = 2.41, we can estimate that it provides just slightly less warmth than the MB Alpine Light. The actual range for the EB Ascent is 40F – 23F.

In a later post to the same thread hikerjer says, "I really just want this jacket for relatively safe temps – say 15 to 25 degrees – just to wear while taking a break or eating lunch. If I'm over night in the winter or in really cold temps, I take my high quality, although I'm not sure of the fill power, SD down parka." He would have been sweating if he used the EB Ascent on the move. He wanted the EB Ascent to keep him toasty when he stopped to eat lunch but, the EB Ascent is appropriate for a higher temperature range of 40F to 23. It is quite similar to the "down sweater" class of jackets we have been discussing in this forum thread.

He had the option of just taking his SD down parka, but that would have been extra weight. Like hikerjr, most of us want to carry the minimum weight to satisfy our thermal requirements.

The Montbell Alpine light jacket has 4 oz. of 800 fill. Why would it be warmer than the LL Bean with 4.4 oz. 850 fill?

The Montbell is five ounces lighter and only ten dollars more but on this trip warmth is the most important. Durability is important as well. I would imagine the LLbean would be made with a more durable shell to account for the five extra ounces.

Joseph,

I think you should have said something along the lines of (Problem with your chart?) versus your (Problem with your Chart!). I view the prior as being discourteous.

You also should have said, “The fill amount is not publicized. I called LL Bean Customer Service. They told me the LL Bean Ultralight 850 Down Jacket used 850 down fill, the fabric was 1.4 oz/yd2, and the fill amount was 4.37 oz. Why does your chart show the MB Alpine Light as being warmer?”

I calculated the Iclo values for every temperature rated product in the LL Bean catalog. I did this by using their specified temperature rating and their specified activity level. I never talked to their Customer Service department.

After reading your post, I called LL Bean’s customer service and asked them what the oz of fill for that jacket was. They told me it was 4.37 oz. Knowing that this value was higher than my calculation, I then asked them what size jacket the fill amount was for? They said, “Size L; we don’t have the information for any other size.”

My table compares the insulation of all size M jackets. There is an average of about 21% reduction in the fill amounts between size L and size M. When you reduce 4.37 by 21 %, you get 3.45 oz for a size M.

You won’t get any more responses from me to your forum posts. Hopefully, you will learn more than just what it takes to stay warm from this interaction. You will also learn there are consequences to not being respectful of others.

Don't let the exclamation mark upset you. It was placed at the end of the subject heading to get your attention. It was not meant to sound discourteous or disrespectful in any way.

For me its very easy to misunderstand someone else with out face and hand expressions. I suppose it is for others as well. I hope you will reconsider in helping me in my search for a lightweight down jacket as I have no clue what I am doing without help from others. Thanks for the help.

Joseph

Hands on comparison of Alpine light, Permafrost light,
LL Bean 850 fill.

I had all 3 jackets in my living room a few days ago.
I want a jacket I can put on when I get to camp and I'm standing around. I tend to overheat when hiking even in winter, so I just wear a very thin wool icebreaker with a vest/windbreaker if needed.

I found the permafrost light to have less warmth than the other two jackets and the windblock was not as good as the Alpine. It did have less down.

I expected the Alpine to be the warmest because of the Loft and construction. It was the best in the wind but oddly I found the LL Bean to be the warmest in spite of the superior design and construction. I did not like that the LL Bean jacket was made in Bagladesh & stitch through construction but the LL Bean was well made and warm and I wanted the warmest 16 oz jacket I could find and afford.

PHP says it's the best year in 50 years for down and they are advertizing 900 fill down, maybe LL Bean's 850 fill down was a good batch and I got 900 fill, I don't know but it's a great jacket for the price. I was expecting very different results. (It should also be noted I'm a cold sleeper, I overheat when I hike and when I stop hiking my pilot light goes out and I freeze. I don't plan to use the jacket below 28 degrees, it's overkill but I like being warm.)

I had several other people try on the same jackets standing outside in the wind and we all had about the same opinion. Tar and feather me, drum me off the site for having subjective results.

8/4/2010 I ended up sending the ll bean jacket and going with a Montbell Alpine for more warmth.

I bought one of the snowpack 700 jackets on sale for 60$ I am generally a "cold" person. It kept me comfortable sitting inactive with baselayer and shell for 2 hours @ 30*F. Quality is OK for the price, couple of loose threads, a few flyaway strands of down. It suits my needs and is a heck of a value. Sizing runs large, might want to order a size down.

Large is 14.5 oz. Today they're 50$ with free shipping.

I bought the same jacket at half off with free shipping in size Large. Delivered was about $50. Earlier, I had bought the Mont Bell light alpine parka from Campsaver.com.

I did a quick comparison with the outside air temp of 16F.

I wore only a heavy long sleeve cotton T on the upper body under the jacket. I made two brief trips out to deposit superfluous matter into the provided container (Took out the trash).

The Mont Bell was distinctly warmer, but much tighter in the size Large than the Lands End product. (I later returned the Mont Bell for a size XL).

I could feel that with the Lands End product, I would quickly become uncomfortable at 16F with just walking around carrying a light object. To be comfortable would require at least one more layer of insulation.

Clearly, the jacket is well worth $50. But, it is probably less warm than the published -10F to 15F range. I don't know yet how well it works for very low level activities over long times.

It packs into the "pocket/bag" thing ( an attached 10.5" X10.5" flat measured stuff sack)pretty well and makes a small pillow like thing.