Ultralight Backpacking Ethically (UBE)

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Anna, there's clearly many exciting topics here but please remember our focus. I think an apology to Michael would be in order to quash that conflict here. Maybe more an apology to the thread. Not for your views, but for using this as a soapbox. If you two want to continue that debate, create a new one in Chaff, I agree with Dave.

Moderator, do not move this thread, it's useful, if somewhat scattered. Maybe we should start a new one for UBE (or a better name)?

-mike (not that Michael)

EDIT: eh, whatever. Dave, Michael, Anna, post away, it's yours now, I guess.

> My critique of Catholicism has nothing to do with generosity or lack thereof; I am very aware that they, and many other religiously-based organizations, give tremendous amounts of time and money. If that was all they gave (or had given throughout history), that would be fine. But two things are true: (1) The bulk of religious history throughout time is not about generosity but about conquering and converting and (2) generosity and love for humanity (not to mention the desire to not destroy the planet) in no way requires a religios motivation. I certainly don't blame the catholic church or western civilization for poverty. But their respective heydays are over. One of the pillars of catholicism (or any religion) may be moving away from materialism. …I don't see the Vatican up for sale. So I really don't believe them. At all.
You are correct about corruption. The amount of influence, historically speaking, of "western civilization" on the rise to power of those corrupt systems and people is ridiculous and traceable, though.
There is nothing inherently evil about free enterprise or capitalism. They are concepts, nothing more. It's what people (with their however-evolved desires to obtain more and more resources) do with those concepts. So far, more conquering and converting.
And, really, how much trust do you have in either the legal system or the democratic process at this point in the history of this country? Mine own trust hath faltered severely.

In addition to serving the poor, theVatican also is a strong advocate of environmentalism and has been one of the most aggressive nations in the world on this front.

Why must the Catholic Church sell the Vatican in order to be considered charitable? It has over a billion members (1/6 of the world's population) and has collected artifacts for thousands of years that are historically and spiritually significant to the faith. Considering the size population of the Church the Vatican is really not that big.

I don't see people critical of the Church selling their houses and giving everything to the poor, they just advocate everyone else do so.

Again, the church gives enormous attention and resources to the poor. It is one of the primary functions of the Church yet it is criticized for not giving everything it has.

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Boy…I guess I have to wade into this, where to start? This is not directed at anyone in particular and I haven't read all the prior threads, I apologize in advance if I am too off topic, I just want to express my opinion.

Free enterprise and capitalism are not concepts or philosophies, or even "ism's" like the others (communism, fascism, socialism, nazism, etc). Free enterprise and "capitalism" are how people naturally interact with each other when allowed the opportunity to do so. The others are constructs that are forced on people.

Free and enterprise and capitalism are NOT synonymous with greed and exploitation etc. Greed and exploitation are human conditions. For instance, the most oppressive and exploitive regimes in the history of the world have been communist.

Which brings me to religion. While not religious myself, I've grown weary of the propensity these days to blame religion for everything. Religion didn't commit all these sins against man and nature, humans did. Whether religion or communism or capitalism is employed as the "cover", exploitive acts are always committed by humans. To "blame" one construct or another implies that these would not have taken place without the existence of that construct. I just don't think that's true.

In my opinion, free trade and "capitalism" with an emphasis on family and education are the keys to successfully mitigating the "bad apples" that use whatever construct works for them to exploit others.

I also believe that religious belief (in whatever form) and faith was instrumental in the advancement of the world. Otherwise, what poor dope would ever have gotten onto a little wooden boat (whether in Fiji or Portugal) and set off into the unknown?

While I'm at it, it's also fashionable these days to knock corporations. Well, I believe the notion of pooling resources and sharing risk while limiting liability (a corporation) is the greatest single innovation in the history of human development. From Marco Polo Caravans to Dutch trading ships, these efforts led to the development of the modern world. And make no mistake, we enjoy the highest standard of living the world has ever known.

My greater point is that ANY organization (religion, government, corporation) is susceptible to abuse. Our best chance to realize the benefits of these organizations and mitigate the problems is, again, freedom of choice, a skeptical eye toward our "leaders" and an emphasis on family and education.

So how do you like them apples? ; )

I agree David

People may not want to admit it but religion is also responsible for our education establishments and medical advancements which our entire society is built on.

Without The Catholic Church all of us actually would probably be living under the law of Sharia.

DaveT, that comment was a follow up to this post

"Interesting. My sainted mother, a real conservative in the classic sense, would have kicked my a@@ down the block if I had left a speck of mess for someone else to clean up."

Just reiterating that point

Whereas saying Catholics are evil is something on a different level

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Dave, although I pretty much agree with you regarding the Church, I have to say – imo you're as guilty or more guilty than anyone else in the thread for fueling the flames…

Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm like a moth to the flames and always enjoy a good discussion. :-)

How's about this… If you want to discuss the finer (or grosser) points of religion or economics, the UBE thread under Chaff would be great. If you want to discuss backpacking and ethical issues–as related to backpacking–keep the discussion going here.

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ok I am all for moving to chaff

I don't know what chaff is, but it sounds uncomfortable.

Also, this thread really makes me realize that I need to get a job!

"For the record, I have never introduced any mushrooms except wild chantrelles into my diet. :)"

Ya coulda fooled me. ;}

To me, it doesn't make a difference what subforum the threads are in, I just look at the most recent threads. Is there a way to ignore the Chaff subforum, and would I really not be curious enough to look?

"And do you honestly get the impression that I would be in favor of Americans, as a group, "educating" anybody?"

To be perfectly frank, Ana, in the absence of a specific suggestion as to who exactly should be doing the educating, that thought did cross my mind.

Who did you have in mind then? Honest question. No agenda.
And how would you go about getting the benighted masses to listen? Tough sledding, even in our own country, IMO.

"Making things out of stuff that never really goes away is pretty crazy when you think about it though…."

Maybe not, if you design with recycling in mind. Think the total product responsibility cycle mandated in some European countries, e.g. Germany.

The Original Ultralight Hikers: Seeking Wilderness Simplicity from Modern Day Nomads

OK sorry if I offended the Civic HX club lol. But they are kind of boring compared to a CR-X. 60 in second gear is always a good thing, my MR2 does that but not because of tall gearing.

"OK sorry if I offended the Civic HX club lol. But they are kind of boring compared to a CR-X."

No offense at all, Jesse. I'll be the first to admit that a CRX is waaay more fun to drive. But then, if you're looking for kicks in a car, you've gotta up the ante a bit, IME. Way above a Civic of any kind. Stock, at least.

Not very UBE-ly correct though.

"And how would you go about getting the benighted masses to listen? Tough sledding, even in our own country, IMO."

Tom… So true. Remember the conversion to metric?

I wonder about folk sometimes.
You may not agree with others viewpoints, but talking about the size of your 'car' is, isn't very clever. I would rather read someones passionate debate, than some of the nonsense being spouted here.
Folk speaking from their heart is more interesting than folk speaking from their a**. :)

What the….?

I put up a post before work this morning on the "UBE" topic…

3 pages of religious craziness later…

Sometimes I really wonder why we're all sitting and typing into space…
I only know for certain that one of you -Michael S.- even exist…

"OK sorry if I offended the Civic HX club lol. But they are kind of boring compared to a CR-X."
I had a Civic HX and it was definitely boring compared to CRX and even older Civics. If you're tempted by one do NOT buy one with a CVT transmission (continously variable transmission). My CVT died and according to transmission shops they had problems.

…let's chop up a Civic, using hemp and cuben materials, into and eco friendly Pope Mobile. That would save a LOT of ounces over his current ride!

This thread has gone beyond ridiculous.

Anna, I salute you for starting this. It was inspired. But so long, and thanks for all the fish!