TGO Challenge clothing list questions

[john flanagan]

There seems to be quite a lively conversation about the TGO Challenge that floats about here so I thought I'd throw out a few questions and see what results :)

My biggest questions are around clothing to meet the wild variation in weather. My understanding of the environment is that it can range from 70s and sun to 30's in wind, sleet and snow on the tops, with night time temps well below freezing. Sound about right?

To cope with this, I'm considering the following gear, which I'd love feedback on.

Base layers
*Merino zip turtleneck (ice breakers 200 wght)
*Merino t-shirt
*Patagonia capilene boxers
*Patagonia silkwgt capilene longjohns – I'm debating the need for these

Insulating Layers
*MEC primaloft pullover
*MEC expedition wght gilet or vest – I'm debating the need for this as well

Outer Layers
*Montane lightspeed windshirt
*Montane Terra Pants heavily treaked with nikwax
*Montbell Peak Shell – rain
* cropped frog togs rain pants; I've come across an interesting idea of layering heavily nikwaxed windpants over the terra pants and calling it good. The idea seemed to be that this works much like the paramo system. I'd love input on this as it would be more flexible for bar time and clothing washouts.

Headwear
*peaked ball cap
*woolcap
*buff

Feet
*I'd love your thoughts on socks that work particularly well in the constant wet (i.e. less prone to causing skin irriation, blisters and faster drying) For the first time I'm considering synthetics.
*low gaiters to keep crud out of shoes and off aforementioned socks.
*hiking shoes
*crocs

Hands
*a couple pairs of polypro liner gloves
*MLD event rain mitts

This would allow wearing up to 5 layers on the torso with primaloft jacket in reserve, and 2 on the legs with long johns in reserve.

Comments please!

[Martin Rye]

Snow,rain,sunshine and strong winds all in a day could happen. Your kit looks fine. A good rain jacket is essential and why not join the Challenge forum and ask there for advice. I would take Gore-Tex socks like Trek mates Amphibians to keep the feet dry and warm in bad weather. I would take a down Jacket for camp instead of your choice.

If I was on the challenge this time I would have taken:

Base Layer BPL Beartooth top
Merino t-shirt

Paramo 3rd Element Jacket
Gore-Tex trousers (Berghaus)

Haglofs fleece vest

Montane Antifreeze down jacket

Gloves same as you and wool hat with a buff

Inov-8 310 with Gore-Tex socks and no Gaiters, plus x 2 pairs of merino socks (Smart Wool)

Haglofs Rugged Mountain pants and wind shirt

Your thinking is sound and check Chris Townsends writeup on kit needed in Scotland he did for BPL.

[Diplomatic Mike]

Your list looks pretty good John. I don't know about the frogs toggs though. I believe they aren't very durable? Depending on the route you choose, you could be trekking through a lot of thigh deep heather.
A typical set-up i would use in May would be something like the following.

WORN.

Smartwool Adrenaline socks. (Spare pair carried)

Rohan X-static briefs. (Spare pair carried)

Icebreaker l/s top.

Montane Terra Lite pants.

Trail shoes. (Mizuno Wave Harrier at the moment)

CARRIED/WORN

100 weight fleece pullover (Jack Wolfskin Gecko)

UL Windshirt (PHD hooded)

Montbell UL Thermawrap Parka

TNF Triumph Anorak

Montane Atomic Pants.

Merino liner gloves. (Icebreaker)

Extremities Tuff-bags (paclite mitts)

Icebreaker Beanie

Rocky goretex socks

ID Event mini-gaiters.

This would be for a high level route. I would possibly leave the Icebreaker gloves at home, and maybe carry an insulated vest instead of the parka for a low level route.

[Derek Goffin]

That seems OK to me.
I take goretex socks and do not take crocs. The socks are possible to use by themselves for short trips around camp and keep my feet mostly dry during the day. Stream crossing where some wear crocs, I take off all socks put back my shoes and the goretex socks protect my socks from the wet shoes on the other side.

[john flanagan]

I have no experience with Gore-tex socks but these seem popular with at least you all and certainly weigh a good bit less than crocs, so I'll give them serious consideration!

The point about frogg togg durability is well taken.

[Jason Elsworth]

Looks good to me. I would carry the NEC expedition weight garment. In terms of leg wear I have also looked at Colin Ibtotson's idea and think it could work well for me as long as the pants were a soft shell pant. I think he uses Montane Terra Strech pants, but I am not so sure with just a std pant. Also as I suggested in another thread I think that Frog Toggs would be good for a trial run of this system, but I wouldn't use them for a 2 week trip in Scotland. Hope this helps.

[Rod Lawlor]

I would nix the MEC vest. I'm not a big fan of mine (about 4yo) as the sleeve holes tend to rub, for me anyway. I have the old Northern Lite, and find it's more than adequate for the conditions you're talking about.

I would also nix the polypro liners if you're trying to keep your hands warm. I like the BD Jetstreams MUCH more, for similar weight. (Check out Andy Kirkpatrick's blog http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/gear while Psychovertical is down, for glove ideas) They are longer over the wrist than the ORs)

I'm not sure what fabric the Montane Terras are, but I like Schoeller Dryskin Extreme tights for conditions like these, with maybe a pair of merinos to sleep in. The Schoellers are comfortable wet or dry, -10C or up to 15C. I sleep in mine, but if they were REALLY wet (they dry quick) I would change to the merinos and put the wet ones on in the morning. I use MEC Ferretas.

Not sure I'm a fan of double merino tops. I'm pretty sure for the weight of the longsleeve zip, you could change to a MEC hooded expedition weight top, or the Patagonia R1 hoody. Wide range of temps, esp with the windshirt. Then I'd go to the lightest weight longsleeve merino with NO zip, instead of the short sleeve. If it's light enough, you won't need the zip to vent, and this will avoid stacking five zips (base, hoody, windshirt, Primaloft, Peak).

I like the longer leg boxers to prevent chafing..

Rod

[Mary D]

RE polypro glove liners: The problem is that for even the most minor in-camp tasks, you have to remove your gloves if they are thick. Nice thick warm gloves are great when you are wearing them, but they do not keep your hands warm when they're not on your hands! Next time I go out in cold weather I will take both the polypro liners and the thick fleece gloves. At least my hands won't freeze solid while I'm lighting my stove or doing other tasks that require some dexterity!

On a recent trip to Washington's North Cascades, I really wanted a lightweight fleece vest. While my Montbell UL Thermawrap jacket (plus balaclava and gloves) kept me plenty warm enough when I was resting, I could have used the vest, in addition to base layer, wind jacket and headband, while I was moving (late in the day, windy, about 25*F/-4*C). The puffy jacket and my balaclava would have been far too warm to wear while hiking.

[Diplomatic Mike]

I wouldn't worry too much about temps below freezing during the day. The temp might drop below freezing at night. May has been a nice month in Scotland for the last few years, but the weather is very unpredictable. A 100 weight fleece top is always in my pack. It is breathable enough to wear whilst hiking, and doesn't absorb water. I always carry a lightweight windshirt too. Combined with the fleece and merino base, the combo covers a lot of conditions.

Schoeller Dryskin Extreme is a good fabric for these conditions, as Rod mentions. I'm thinking of getting a pair myself. (Mammut Champ Pants) They would be too warm for me if the temp reached 20C though. The thigh vents on the Terras are nice when the temp rises.

[Rod Lawlor]

Mary,

Sorry, I should have said that the Jetstreams are Powerstretch fleece. Perfect for doing campsite chores. I like a pair of dishwashing gloves over the top for digging in the snow. Try them, I guarantee that your hands will be warmer than in polypro, and they're under $20.

Mike,

Using tan rather than black pants will give you a couple extra degrees of temp range at the top end. The Champs look really nice, but out of my price range. You could always get a thigh vent sewn in!!

[Mary D]

Thanks, Rod, I'll take a look at those! Anything that will keep my hands warm while doing tasks requiring manual dexterity will be wonderful!

I don't like wearing black simply because I backpack with a blond, perpetually shedding dog! Khaki is the best color when he's around! :-)

[Diplomatic Mike]

The only colour available here is black! The latest Mammut pants use a newer fabric with something called 'Coldblack'. It is supposed to reflect 80% of sunlight.
Mountain Equipment also make the Combin and Liskamm pants using the fabric. In black. :)
The Mountain Equipment pants have thigh vents.

[Rod Lawlor]

Mike,

It probably doesn't matter if you're in Scotland. The way I hear it, the only sunshine you guys get comes in a bottle!!

[Diplomatic Mike]

Believe it or not Rod, we actually do see the sun now and then. 14th June 1997 was a nice day, if i remember correctly. ;)

Because our weather systems are from the Atlantic, we are never going to be a destination for a beach holiday though! :)

You need the clouds to appreciate the sunshine, and the water from the clouds is used in some lovely single malt sunshine.

[Chris Townsend]

John, I've hiked the Challenge 13 times with a wide variety of gear. During those hikes I've had blizzards, heavy rain, stormforce winds, frosts and hot sunshine! Your clothing list looks good but there are probably some items you could cut/change to lighten it. Here are my comments.

Base layers
*Merino zip turtleneck (ice breakers 200 wght)
*Merino t-shirt

The last three Challenges I've just carried a Smartwool Lightweight Zip T which has been fine in hot and cold weather and for sleeping on the chilliest nights.

*Patagonia capilene boxers
*Patagonia silkwgt capilene longjohns – I'm debating the need for these

I don't bother with long underwear. It depends on whether you think you might need to sleep in them or not.

Insulating Layers
*MEC primaloft pullover
*MEC expedition wght gilet or vest – I'm debating the need for this as well

The last two Challenges I've taken a 100 weight fleece top and a Mont-Bell Ultra-Light Down Inner Jacket. I've found it useful to have one thin insulating layer to wear while walking on chilly days and a thicker one for camping.

Outer Layers
*Montane lightspeed windshirt

Excellent! I've worn one on the last four Challenges and many other trips.

*Montane Terra Pants heavily treaked with nikwax

I've worn Terra Pants on the last few Challenges too but not treated them with anything.

*Montbell Peak Shell – rain
* cropped frog togs rain pants; I've come across an interesting idea of layering heavily nikwaxed windpants over the terra pants and calling it good. The idea seemed to be that this works much like the paramo system. I'd love input on this as it would be more flexible for bar time and clothing washouts.

I'll be interested to know how the nikwaxed pants and cropped frog togs rain pants works out! I've used Montane Atomic DT Rain Pants on recent Challenges.

Headwear
*peaked ball cap
*woolcap
*buff

Exactly what I carry.

Feet
*I'd love your thoughts on socks that work particularly well in the constant wet (i.e. less prone to causing skin irriation, blisters and faster drying) For the first time I'm considering synthetics.

I always wear merino wool socks. I haven't found any synthetics that don't need washing every few days or so – drying them on the Challenge can be impossible! This year I wore Teko Hiking Light socks and carried Teko Hiking Medium socks for camp wear. I wore the Hiking Light socks most days – on the hottest days I didn't wear socks at all in my Inov8 Terrocs. I tried waterproof/breathable socks one year but found them too hot – they made nice camp socks though.

*low gaiters to keep crud out of shoes and off aforementioned socks.

I've never bothered with these. I find them too hot.

*hiking shoes
*crocs

I don't bother with spare footwear. In camp I go barefoot if I'm outside much – and if the weather's wet I'm in the tent. I slip the Inov8s on for brief forays outside.

Hands
*a couple pairs of polypro liner gloves
*MLD event rain mitts

I carry one pair of WindPro fleece gloves – and have hardly ever worn them. They are wind resistant and dry quite quickly. In future I would probably just take one pair of polypro liner gloves.

This would allow wearing up to 5 layers on the torso with primaloft jacket in reserve, and 2 on the legs with long johns in reserve.

I reckon on a maximum of 4 layers on the torso with 2 on the legs and have rarely worn all this. The down jacket is my reserve/camp clothing.

Good luck with your planning. It's fun!

[Diplomatic Mike]

The advice from Chris is excellent, John.
I've used his kit-lists as a basis for selecting gear over the years, and never been disappointed. He has probably walked more miles in Scotland than all the other UK forum members combined!

[john flanagan]

I have found the community surrounding this event just remarkable! Thanks for the input.

Specific mods to the list include:
*lighter merino top – thanks martin /rod / chris
*no merino t
*nix the long johns – I've stopped carrying them altogether in the US but didn't want to underestimate conditions; thanks for that bit of feedback Chris!
*I'll either cut out the arm holes on the MEC vest (my experience with it mirrors Rod's and thanks for the reminder) – it does has the great beauty of weighing 4 oz – or will just add a microfleece top. Thanks Rod / Chris
*I'll carry just one pair of gloves – thanks Rod for the point to the JEtstreams. I do find that polypro gloves tend to suffer badly from inadequate wrist coverage and under $20 is the right price.
*Jason – thanks for pointing to Colin Ibbotson; perfect lead and I think that I shall try this approach to rain leggings.
*Rod – do you find the pockets on the MEC pants usable? I stopped in on a recent trip to Halifax and found all of the pockets on all of their pants shallow to the point of pointlessness, but didn't see the Ferratas.

Again – thanks all!

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