Down jacket for winter (<20F)?

> if there is a good reason to not have a hood.
Oh Yes: hoods look a bit nerdy in street fashion – which is a major market. Gotta look trendy.

Oh – were you asking about using a down jacket in the back-country at 20 F? Pretty useless without some sort of hood at 20 F imho. Waste of space.

Cheers

Have a look here where I compiled a list of down jackets including their weight and amount of down used. I’m leaning towards the Klättermusen Bore, Rab Neutrino Endurance or Sir Joseph Koteka Jacket. I would go for the best downfill available (800+ and above) and around 200 g of down.

Re: Hoods, or the lack thereof, it gives you more flexibility. You can for example just take a down hat or balaclava, which is usually lighter than the added weight of a hood on a jacket. That way you got nothing between your head and backpack when you’re not wearing the hood. That said, I really like the hood on my Klättermusen Loke, as I use it also for sleeping and so I can combine my pullover with my quilt; a hat is less practical for me for sleeping.

Re: Size, measure your body and chose the appropriate size from the manufacturers list. Nunatak surely will make it to suit you like a glove if you let them know your measurements.

Roger, what street are you talking about. Hoodies are IN!

I appreciate this discussion, as I'm leaning towards getting either a Montbell Alpine Light Jacket or the equivalent Parka (the latter having a hood …).

I like the idea of a hood, but at an extra ~3 oz, I naturally consider which of two warm headgear layers I currently carry to replace with it. I normally carry a 63g (2.2 oz) thin balaclava and layer on top of that a 77g (2.7 oz) polartech peru-style hat. The combination gives me the kind of flexibility I like in various conditions, and the balaclava is important to keep my nose warm on colder nights. In warmer conditions I leave (or mail) the balaclava home.

So my first reaction was to get the parka, drop the polartech hat and keep the balaclava for colder weather trips.

This would be fine in camp, but in colder weather, typically just starting out on the trail in the morning or after a break, I wear the polartech hat over my baseball hat. I like to start walking a bit chilly at the core but with hand and head warmth that I can adjust without stopping.

So bottom line is that a parka would just add 3 oz to my base weight over the jacket, and while it would also add some additional in-camp warmth, I think I'll be fine in anticipated conditions without that — two warm hat layers plus a down hood is more than I think I'll need (I don't plan on any arctic expeditions or Everest summits …).

In this context, the jacket makes a lot of sense to me — not a waste of space at all. If my current headgear system turns out to be insufficient, I'd rather get a separate replacement for the polartech hat.

If I'm missing some good alternative(s) here, I'd be grateful for the input.

My system uses a Montbell Alpine Down jacket for below to 20 to negative 20 with a Nunatak down balaclava. That way I can use just the jacket when it is around 20 and add the balaclava for when it gets below 0. Just for flexibility than having it always attached where it can't be used as a pillow or other implement.

I take both a hooded parka AND a 2oz beanie. Am I crazy?

Hendrik, nice research! I like the look of that Rab jacket as well.

A couple extra points I just remembered to mention:
– This jacket would be for dry, cold conditions. If there is possibility of wet conditions (which means that it will be around freezing), I will be using one of the synthetic jackets. So the down jacket need not be waterproof (unless someone can come up with an argument otherwise).
– It seems to me that some type of box baffling would be important around this temperature range. Thoughts?

Thanks Chris, was a fun exercise for a Monday afternoon. Yeah, the orange Rab jacket is sweet looking… Decisions, decisions =)

Box baffeling means there are less cold spots. The Sir Joseph Koteka jacket is one of those which uses H chambers, so in comparison to others, which have quilted seams, there's less cold spots.

I don't know if there's much weight difference between waterproof and non-waterproof fabrics used in down jackets. If these would be minimal I would go for the waterproof, just for the added security. If snow is blown on your down jacket in dry and cold conditions, it might melt and penetrate your non-waterproof jacket and diminish the efficiency of the down. Will be less likely with a waterproof fabric, I reckon.

"I'd like to get an insulation layer for daytime highs below 20F."

If we're talking just day hiking, I don't ever use down insulation when I'm moving during the day. The most I might use is a light fleece vest in addition to the standard long underwear, shirt, and shell. I do keep some kind of insulation layer I can throw on if I need to stop for any length of time, although I tend to not do that much while backpacking in winter.

As always, YMMV. Everyone's body works differently, so someone else might need more insulation than I do. In winter, my usual problem while backpacking is to keep from overheating.

If you're talking around 0*F, check out the Feathered Friends Frontpoint. 13oz of down! Removable hood, though at those temps I'd never be without it. Feathered tends to fit a bit on the tighter/more efficient side. The Volant is also nice, but much more "just" a jacket… but lighter… both options are baffled.

Hello Chris,

You wondered whether box baffling is necessary:

– It seems to me that some type of box baffling would be important around this temperature range. Thoughts?

In my experience it is not. Somehow, in a down jack, sewn through baffling doesn't seem to be the problem it is sleeping bags.

I take a 1997 MEC Bush Pilot down jacket out to the Chic Chocs every first week of February. Conditions are typically dry and cold; multi-day periods of -25 to -35 degrees Celsius with high winds occur most years, initiation of frostbite on exposed flesh in under a minute when out of the woods, etc., (although this weather seems to be less frequent as of late).

According to the 2000 MEC catalogue, the Bush Pilot had 385 grams of 550 fill power down fill. It is sewn through in all but the shoulder area, where there is baffling across the top and back.

It is sufficient for these ski tours. I have never found it lacking, although I wish it were a bit less bulky. These are hut-to-hut tours, and just standing around for extended periods I suppose I would cool down, but if moving around a bit and out of the shelter of the wind it works miracles.

Having said that, I am contemplating the MEC Reflex. It looks like a humdinger of a jacket, lighter than the Bush Pilot, and with more resilient fill. Plus my Bush Pilot is getting a little long in the tooth.

Michael

Hendrik,

I just looked at your Down Parka blog for the first time today. In summary your explicit selection criteria were:

-Adequate warmth for UL backpacking in -15C (5F) and below temps
-Waterproof

Only one of your listed down parka options is insulated enough to achieve thermo-neutrality for the average male, wearing typical winter base layers and doing camp chores at -15C (-5F) and below. That garment is the Nahanny Down Jacket and even it doesn't satisfy your waterproof criteria.

The five lowest cost options that will satisfy all of your criteria are:

30 oz $385 Feathered Friends Frontpoint (WR)
35 oz $269 Eddie Bauer Peak XV Down Jacket (WR)
36 oz $274 Mountain Hardwear Men's Sub Zero SL Hooded Down Jacket
36 oz $284 Marmot Mountain Down Jacket
59 oz $199 LL Bean Baxter State Parka

If value is not an implicit criterion then there are five additional options:

31 oz $619 Nunatak Torre (WR)
33 oz $770 Valandre Sirius Jacket
34 oz $475 Feathered Friends Icefall Parka
42 oz $499 BASK Ertzog UIAA down jacket
55 oz $700 RAB Expedition Parka

Richard and all: Check out the First Ascent Peak XV parka-

http://www.eddiebauer.com/FIRST-ASCENT/First-Ascent-Mens/First-Ascent-Mens-Outerwear/index.cat#ppl=%7Btype%3A%22hide%22%7D

They are around $279 and are well made and seems very, very warm for the price. Richard: Can you calculate how much down fill the Peak XV has? Thanks in advance.

Jeff

p.s. If anyone can chime in on hyperlinking this, I would
love to know the code, because doesn’t
work…

Chris,

When I think of day use I think of insulation that is going to be adequate with respect to my activity level. Of the two, activity level would predominate if I were making the decision. Case in point: I can hike in leather hiking boots and wool socks in snow down to 0F and my feet will remain warm as long as I am moving.

But soley considering temperature, I believe that sewn-threw construction could still serve you well down to 20F. Now that would be one of the beefier sew-threw jackets and doesn't consider wind which could add to the vulnerability of the sewn sections. Aside from layerning I would explore baffled construction particularly for temps below 10F.

I am not as current on the down jacket market as some of the above posters are but I know there are some models that come with a removable hood (I own one–the Feathered Friends Volant)I like versatility and find that a balaclava made out of WindStopper fabric can take me down 10-15F. If it gets colder than that I will bring my deatchable hood and the balaclava.

While the temp will produce dry snow conditions the shell of your jackets is going to be warm. Getting the shell wet remains a possibility.

Jeff,

I had all of the Eddie Bauer numbers but did not include it in the above post because it wasn't waterproof. It has 12.76 oz of 850 fill, weighs 34.7 oz, and cost $269. For an average male with winter base layers and doing camp chores this garment is good for the range -2F to -33F.

Another way of describing it is to say it has the same warmth (1F worse) and feature set as the highly regarded Feathered Friends Frontpoint but costs $116 less. I will update my prior post to reflect this excellent alternative with the caveat that it isn't waterproof. The EPIC on the Frontpoint is in between being water repellant and waterproof. The Eddie Bauer "Storm Repel" DWR appears to be a Nextec Epic treatment as is the Patagonia "Deluge" DWR.

To all

Would the Nunatak Torre also fit into this group?

SK,

You are correct… thanks. I will update the post to reflect your input.

> Finally, I'm pretty slim (Montbell and Cloudveil work well for me; Patagonia is cut too big) and not sure how the WM or Nunatak garmets fit in general. Any suggestions?

Chris,

I'm slim too (6'2+/170 pounds/40" chest/35" arms from C7 to wrist) and like you, I find Montbell has perfect sizing for me. The Montbell Alpine Lite jacket in large is the best fit I've ever owned.

Last season I got a WM Flash jacket in large. Sleeve length is good. It's more generous in the chest/shoulder than I'd like, but it's acceptable, unlike Patagonia jackets which are monstrously big in the chest.

I don't have any experience with Nunatak.

BTW I have a RAB Generator smock in large that fits great too. Not sure about their down jackets though.

Aside: the other night my wife and I went to see the latest Warren Miller ski film. It was a cold night for Santa Barbara–high 40s!–and it was as ski film so there were plenty of down jackets on display, and most were Patagonia, probably because their HQ is nearby. The women's Pagagonia down sweaters all seemed to fit great. But without exception, the men were swimming in theirs… the chest size was WAY too big. Why does Patagonia continue to size their men's clothes for the obese when most of their customers have rock climber proportions?