Topic

Modern Versus “Vintage” Down Bags.

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PostedOct 10, 2009 at 9:51 pm

I joined this forum to get some opinions on sleeping bags, specifically the Western Mountaineering Versalite versus a Marmot Hydrogen. I think I've settled on the WM Versalite, but I found my old M-1949 bag, so I can save some money for now if I'm willing to accept more weight.

The M-1949 is rated to 14 degrees Fahrenheit. It is made of cotton filled with 46 ounces of "Waterfowl Down", giving the bag a total weight of 110.25 ounces in a sil-nylon compression sack. Now, the WM Versalite is rated to 10 degrees Fahrenheit, and weighs only 20 ounces.

I know the shells of the two bags are different, but is that enough to make a 6 pound difference? Have waterfowl been using down enhancing drugs in recent years? How can the WM provide more protection with less than half the down that the US GI used? Were the military geese lowest bidders? All joking aside, aren't feathers–feathers?

Boozer BPL Member
PostedOct 10, 2009 at 10:03 pm

The quick answer as copied from a down site –

"What Is 'Fill Power'?
Down’s insulating capability is described as ‘fill power.’ Fill power is measured by how much a certain type of down can fluff up (loft) in a given space. Typically, fill power is measured as the number of cubic inches (in3) one ounce of down can fill—or, more simply, cubic inches per ounce (in3/oz). High fill-power downs (800-900 in3/oz) will insulate far better than low fill-power downs (around 300 in3/oz) of the same weight."

That should pretty much explain it…

PostedOct 10, 2009 at 10:07 pm

I haven't been able to find any data regarding the M-1949, but its fill power is clearly lower than modern bags.

Boozer BPL Member
PostedOct 10, 2009 at 10:12 pm

My guess would be much lower…and I would guess plenty of feathers in the mix.

PostedOct 10, 2009 at 10:19 pm

Just a guess.., the weight of lighter nylon shell fabrics used today compress the down fill less. That, combined with higher quality down used in premium bags (fill power/expansion) could account for lower temperature rating as compared to weight ratio Some old bags use heavy metal tooth zippers also.

PostedOct 10, 2009 at 11:12 pm

All joking aside, aren't feathers–feathers?

Here is some info on that bag.
http://www.vietnamgear.com/kit.aspx?kit=677

As you can see it was made with a mix of down and feathers.
Technically down is a type of feather however for simplicity sake we refer to the cotton ball kind of thing as down and the ones with some spine as feathers.
This link http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jcondit/current/feathers/feathers_main.htm
lists the six types of feather and has a picture of the three most commonly found inside a sleeping bag. Yours will have all three types, a WM will have a max of 5% of the "semiplume" , in practice provably less.

The finer type "down feather" also can vary a great deal, hence the loft rating between 500 and 900 used by the better brands.
WM rate theirs at around 800.
That simply means a 900 fill will weigh almost half as a 500 for the same loft and (close enogh) warmth.
BTW another site lists a filling of 2 lbs and 8 oz for that M1949 ,about the same as the -40f rated WM Bison .

Just had another look.
The total weight on the second site is listed at 6 lbs 2 oz something , so I guess it is for the "inner" only of the two part bag.
That means the shell alone of the "inner" is about 32 0z
Franco

PostedOct 11, 2009 at 7:51 am

Franco,

I should have mentioned that I removed the water-resistant shell on mine, as it is about 2 pounds. I plan on finding a modern GI version in Gore-Tex because I have a decent source for those.

So I guess the short answer is that feathers aren't all created equal, and the military was clearly using a lowest bidder. Because this bag was free, I have decided that 6 pounds in weight isn't quite worth $450 yet.

Troy Ammons BPL Member
PostedOct 11, 2009 at 8:19 am

You can get a 20dF campmor bag that weighs about 2#-4 for about $130.

Coin Page BPL Member
PostedOct 12, 2009 at 1:41 pm

I just got my Versalite. It is a lovely bag. The loft is the best I've ever owned.

Hikin’ Jim BPL Member
PostedOct 13, 2009 at 5:10 pm

We had some of those old bags when I was a kid. The really old ones were a tan color; the newer ones were olive drab.

They definitely were not the best bags. Despite being heavier and bulkier than some of our other bags, they were not as warm. I still have the Seattle Quilters (long since out of business I'm sure) ca. 1959 down bag that was dad's and my old down bag from the 70's (got 'em when dad passed), but those old USGI bags are long gone. They just weren't good bags.

Look for sales or at Campmor. If you're near an REI they have fantastic used gear sales. Save the old USGI bag for sleepovers for the kids or maybe for car camping. Save your bones and get a real bag for BP'ing.

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