Call to quilt users

I just tried out my new quilt (GoLite Ultra 20) for the first time this weekend in coldish temps and was very happy. I wore poly baselayers head-to-toe and in the very early morning threw on a light down jacket and was very toasty. I REALLY like to be able to move around. I tend to spin like the washing machine at night.

Now, I haven't worked out yet what to do sub-freezing, but I'm considering adding another quilt.

> but all that added up probably weighs more than a 10 degree down bag. Sleeping with
> a quitl with all that stuff on just doesn't justify the "weight savings".
I agree. Yep, I agree.
BUT: what about while you are cooking dinner, or getting breakfast, or going outside briefly? Ah – then the down clothing shows it's value.

> And what are you going to put on to warm up a little bit after getting out from under your quilt?
Huh?? When I am under my quilt I am already WARM. When I get out from under it – then I cool down if I don't have extra clothing.

Typically what happens in the morning is that Sue pokes me and says 'Breakfast' (and then goes back to sleep for a few minutes!) I sit up (reluctantly), put on my Cocoon, and prepare breakfast. When its ready Sue sits up, puts on her Cocoon, and says 'OK, where is it?'.

Cheers

> The other option is to have a quilt large enough to drape over you without being tucked
> under. This is less common because it requires a larger quilt.

But it works great!

cheers

> It's 10 degrees out. You have your 30 degree quilt…
> Uhhhh I could be wrong but all that added up probably
> weighs more than a 10 degree down bag

If the clothing were only going to be used for sleeping you are correct. It's impossible to beat a sleeping bag or quilt on a warmth / weight basis with clothing using similar materials. There are hardcore folks who only take base + shell (no insulation) for this very reason. They engage in high aerobic activities until they are ready to get into the sleeping bag and make sure that they have a system establish to get going FAST in the morning… typically starting with a good climb to get off to a good start. The Versalite is definitely warmer / weight that my quilt + clothing which is why as it gets colder I switch to a warmer bag.

BUT… if I am going to be bringing the clothing for hanging around camp in the evenings, then using the clothing as part of the sleep system can be effective and the combination of the clothing + lighter weight quilt ends up saving some weight. I will note that ghost+my clothing is slightly heavier than the versalite while not being as warm… BUT the quilt + clothing that I might bring anyway is 1lb lighter than the Versalite + high loft clothing.

> And what are you going to put on to warm up a little bit aftert getting out from under your quilt?

Nothing. If I was warm enough under the quilt I found that I have a bit of a buffer so that I don't immediately feel cold. If I immediately ramp up my activity level (packing, cooking, chopping, shoveling snow, hiking) then my need for insulation drops and I can be very comfortable without the quilt.

–Mark

I can't imagine a planned trip where I expected 10 degree (I assume degrees F) temps, but wouldn't be carrying extra lofting clothing anyway.

"And what are you going to put on to warm up a little bit after getting out from under your quilt?"

This question is really puzzling to me. if I am wearing my clothing to bed, then I take that warm layer with me when I leave the quilt, so I don't get cold when getting out of bed. If I'm not wearing my clothing (because it's not cold enough to warrant it), then I have a layer to put on as I get out of bed so I don't lose the warmth. Either way I would make use of the extra clothing unless it was down right balmy out, in which case I've just carried too much clothing!

"It's 10 degrees out. You have your 30 degree quilt and while you're sleeping you're wearing your down hood, down jacket, your down pants, your down booties, and your down gloves on. Uhhhh I could be wrong but all that added up probably weighs more than a 10 degree down bag. Sleeping with a quitl with all that stuff on just doesn't justify the "weight savings". And what are you going to put on to warm up a little bit aftert getting out from under your quilt?"

I put on a layer and go. I'm already warm, because if it's going to be that cold, I don't take the 30 degree quilt, I take my two 20 oz 3 season quilts, each rated to around 25F, for four inches of high quality down over me (that's subtracting some for the inevitable slight compression of the inside quilt). If I want to be really fancy I'll take one of the wearable 4 season Jacks R Better quilts with a head hole, slide it over my head, add sleeves and go, assuming I'm already wearing a warm hat. Seriously, you could make it a little more challenging than that.

>> The other option is to have a quilt large enough to drape over you without being tucked
>> under. This is less common because it requires a larger quilt.
>
>But it works great!

Indeed. It does work and is really comfortable. There are times I have been tempted to switch to a large quilt… but the ghost has been good enough that I haven't made the switch.

I would bet that using a quilt whose natural drape provides an adequate "seal" is far superior to the more close fitting quilt when being used by a couple.

> Yes, but strapping it down partly defeats the freedom of using a quilt! We use velcro straps to attach the edges of the quilt to the bottom of the mats, like this

Lynn,
The velcro seems to make more sense to me than using a strap as well as long as the quilt is wide enough. I'd assume straps would cause more loss of loft around the edges. I also think straps wouldn't work as well for someone like me that switches sides frequently in the night. Any issues with the velcro pieces fraying/pilling various fabrics when not connected?

"The velcro seems to make more sense to me than using a strap as well as long as the quilt is wide enough. I'd assume straps would cause more loss of loft around the edges"

Yes, we find this is so. The velcro allows you to set the width of the quilt rather than having to cinch it down, plus I found that ordinary straps tended to move in the night if I tossed and turned a lot. Fraying/pilling hasn't been a problem. The softer female bit of velcro is the piece that's on the sleeping bag, the harsher male bit is on the bottom of the mat where it only ever touches the floor.. The velcro on the mat actually stops it from sliding on slippery silnylon floor as well.

You could take that to the next degree, and use a full-length velcro strip a la the Jacks R Better Down-to-Earth pad.

Picture from JacksRBetter.com:

"You could take that to the next degree, and use a full-length velcro strip a la the Jacks R Better Down-to-Earth pad."

I have found that aligning the velcro length-wise like JRB, rather than width-wise as in my photo above, gives the velcro a lot less holding power, ie it is easier to roll over and rip the velcro off using the JRB method (I know this for a fact as it was what I tried initially before I struck on the above method).

> It's 10 degrees out. You have your 30 degree quilt…
> Uhhhh I could be wrong but all that added up probably
> weighs more than a 10 degree down bag

a 10 degree quilt would be even lighter than a 10 degree bag…..and even lighter still is a 30 degree quilt when you already need the insulating layers to wear around camp.

There's no point in bringing redundant insulation. If you are bringing a warm insulating jacket, factor that in when you choose your quilt or bag as you may be able to get by with a lighter one.

Thanks for all the discussion. I just got back today and really enjoyed your takes. I also have been thinking about this the past three days as I really am moving forward. (Or is it backwards? My grandma always said nothing is better than a good down quilt…)

You all have a lot of good points, some of which seems pretty right on to me. I have never been the “wear everything I own to bed type, but I do see where that can be an option if things go awry…

I am going to think more of using the things I bring already (like my down sweater) if needed. But I will most likely tailor my quilts to hit a medium just as I do my bags. I always sleep in long johns anyway, they may just get thicker depending on the expected temps.

I have played with the numbers. I have a LOT of data on sleeping bags. I have tested and reviewed many over the years. From what I can see it makes a lot of sense for me to go with quilts even if I have to double them up to hit the lows I will see in Minnesota or on a winter peak. Of course I won’t know if those calculations add up when it comes to the real world. That is why I thank you for your experience. It makes me more willing to try.

The weights are the deciding factor. Even putting a Nunatak Arc Expedition with an Epic shell over my Arc Alpinist to take it to -20 F I will be 11 oz lower than carrying my wonderful Moonstone Cassin Ridge bag. (I have no plan to do a quilt replacement of my Marmot CWM at this time…)

An Expedition in Epic with 2 oz of over-fill to take it to 0 F will weigh 38 oz, compared to my SD Cirque 0 F that weighs 65 oz.

And yes, I will need some serious head insulation in these conditions, most likely more than I take right now to hike or sleep in. So I have to factore some extra weight there I suppose.

Roger, Roger, Roger…

Typically what happens in the morning is that Sue pokes me and says 'Breakfast' (and then goes back to sleep for a few minutes!) I sit up (reluctantly), put on my Cocoon, and prepare breakfast. When it’s ready Sue sits up, puts on her Cocoon, and says 'OK, where is it?'.

I have spent many years getting to know you. We had our ups and downs and while good friends now had more of a love-hate relationship at first. (Was there much love…? Maybe more respect.) I always looked at your posts and stories and said, “What a saint he has for a wife. Goes out into all sorts of weather with this cantankerous so-and-so and has a smile in every picture I have ever seen. How did he score her?” Now we know! Rog makes breakfast.

(The love is there now R. You both rock.)

Oh yeah,

Tonight I ordered two more quilts. (I am going to sell the GoLite Ultra 20, but will always be thankful for it showing me the way to comfort.)

I ordered an Arc Specialist in 1 oz Quantum with an extra oz of fill at the shoulders. This is going to be my low elevation and summer high-country quilt (if I am pretty sure it will be warm. Ha, Mother Nature laughs at me…) And I ordered an Arc Expedition in Epic with 2 oz of over-fill to hopefully take me to 0 F by itself using my Marmot Plasma Parka (which I bring on all trips that low) hood, or entire parka as needed. (The hood detaches, but the zipper may drive me nuts.)

Once they get here I will start using them and sharing data. I will write them up after I get enough use.

> Now we know! Rog makes breakfast.
And morning tea, and dinner. :-)

Lest anyone gets the wrong impression from Ray – Sue usually leads from the front, and has driven many of our trips. She also started us ski-touring. We alternated leads when we were rock-climbing many years ago, up to European Extreme.

Cheers

I have used a Nunatak Arc Alpinist with 1 extra oz of insulation, under a tarp for about 6 years and love it. I have Nunataks down bacalava also (3 oz). On very cold nights or if windy I pair up with a Bibler Winter Bivy (6 oz or so) to seal any drafts.

I have used below 20* often. Last year I purchased WM Flight Jacket and Montbell Inner Pants that I plan to be able to sleep in into single digits, I hope??? So far used in teens and was fine.

Now that I am middle aged my body needs more cushion than a foam pad provides so I bought a Stephens DAM. It's like sleeping on my bed at home. On my first night on trips I always had trouble sleeping but with the DAM I sleep great the first and subsequent nights. Two bottom quilt straps around pad, top strap around body.

The versatility and weight/warmth ratio of a Nunatak quilt makes it a bargain even though very expensive.

This past weekend I was sleeping at 3000 south of Joshua Tree, overnight was clear, 10mph wind, 35-38 degrees outside. Two very similar nights.

I was in an Oware bivy, on an insulated mat under a Jacks quilt, topped by a Spinntwin. I also had with me a Spiral elasticated #3 down hugger bag.

First night i slept in the bag with a warm jacket, my walking pants and regular socks. I was coldish, mainly legs but cold.

Second night I tried the quilt – first time ever. OMG I had to remove my pants (no gasps please) AND my jacket… toasty toasty toasty. I appreciate that 'toasty' isn't much of a scientific word – but it conveys the message. I'm a convert and will be selling that bag here VERY soon.

Everybody – GO WITH A QUILT!

"Everybody – GO WITH A QUILT!"

Ummm, NO. If you were warmer in the quilt then it was because the quilt was warmer, not because it was a quilt. More likely because Montbell seems to have some quality control issues with their down fill, or the #3 is just plain underfilled, or lesser quality down or a poor design. This is an argument to make sure you buy quality, whether buying a quilt or a bag (which can also be used as a quilt).

it sounds good to be a convert – I want everyone to join the club!

So sorry to bring up an old thread but I have a question:

I am new to quilting and have an Idea: If I layer my Epiphany Quilt and my WM Ultralight Bag for REALLY cold conditions. I measured that it would have 5" of down on paper but even with 4" of down according to the BPL chart that would be roughly -20*F. Now if I account for the added warmth of the VBL that the Cuben quilt gives that gives me roughly -30*. I feel like this could be a good way of dealing with a warm system. Quilt inside the Bag (that seemed to work best). However that figure is only for 4" of down, it seems unlikely to me that there is an inch of compression, so I would have closer to 5" of down on top of me. Now lacking anywhere that is gets to -30* in SoCal I will probably never do this, it was just a thought.

Does this make sense? Would you do it?