fear of unknown – tent to tarp

I'm in Socal as well and I can't get used to it…

I like the tarptent – but I've also seen where some people will attach some screen to the edges of their tarps to keep the bugs at bay.

Biggest concern is exposure to wind,rain,and snow. I haven't had any critter problems yet. Its actually nice, compared to a tent, with regards to noise from animals. When your in a tent you can't see out, without getting out of the tent. With a tarp, you can just sit-up or come up on your elbows and shine your headlamp around and see whats causing the noise. I have not had to actually do this, but, its one nice factor with using a tarp. When bugs are an issue you just use a bug shelter or bivy, like the SMD Meteor bivy,MLD Serenity shelter or the Alpinlite bug shelter.

John, I dealt with much the same issue, but only for myself. I typically solo hike so when the lights go out and you sit alone in the woods without a fire I can see how it is easy to become afraid (from personal experience).

I can say that I have moved to a tarp and bivy with great luck. I now camp with less fear than ever (tent days or tarp days). How did I get past the mental block…which all it is as there is no real protection from a paper thin sheeted tent…was to…

-Just do it…pack your tarp and bivy and it is all you got
-Hike a long day so you will be really tired
-Hike during the winter (no bugs)
-Bring Bourben (sad but true for the first time)

My first tarp trip was just that and I haven't looked back. I woke up to frost everywhere and a wonderful morning of hot coffee and oatmeal. I headed out into the Shenendoah Mountains to tackle Old Rag Mountain.

This advice may help you and not the family, but this change may start with you and then them. Maybe on a trip you could bring a tent for them and a tarp/bivy for you.

I do think that fear keeps most people in tents, but once you can break free it is incredibly liberating. In general I have found that tarps just work better than tents.

Jamie

This season I switched from a tent to an ID Salathe Bivy and ID tarp as needed, not to save weight as that combination actually weighs the same as my Stephenson 2R, but to save space in alpine settings. With my ice ax at my side and being exhausted I could care less and just go to sleep but it did take a few nights to get there. Cracking a glow stick also helps especially with a new moon and provides instant orientation if I wake up during the night, I know, a night light in the wilderness!

SO now my question is about logistics – does the mat you sleep on go inside the bivvy? If not what protects its delicate underbelly? Is there a separate sleeve in the bivvy? Is the bivvy for wind and or rain/moisture? Does it provide much warmth or require extra layering? I'd ideally like something I can use at 30-70 degrees! It would probably need to be water resistant, breath, maybe have a head net – still wary of flying or crawling buggy type things – maybe detachable for when I'm bolder – i mean the family is….

there are so many types to choose from – any suggestions?

I put the pad outside the bivy. I use a closed-sell foam pad so it's impervious to thorns and rocks, but as long as you clear the site of sticks and other debris, you could use any pad you want. I always chuckle when I see people carrying their Termarests in waterproof stuffsacks. These things don't absorb water in the first place and even if you were using a tent, there's no rule saying you can't use a wet pad: just put it under (outside) of the tent body itself.

I made my own bivy with silnylon on the bottom and lightweight DWR ripstop for the top. The opening mechanism is a center-oriented zipper so in bug season I can keep the ants, centipedes, snakes and whatnot sealed out of my bag. The zipper does not have to be center-oriented, though. The top of the bivy that covers my face is made of bug netting so when I have the zipper completely closed, I'm not sealed within a ripstop coffin–there is a drawback to this though. That is, if it's a windy night and you have no way to block the wind from your face, you're lips could chap pretty quickly. The silnylon bottom is waterproof, but I always use a thin plastic groundsheet under my tarp to keep it dry and clean, in addition to the rest of my gear I spread around under the tarp (Gossamer Gear polycro groundcloth).

As for tarps, the moment that decided me (actually it was several moments on different days) was when I was in a little solo tent out in the middle of nowhere and passed many excruciating moments listening to animals make noises in camp. Squirrels and birds are common camp visitors that can make the loudest noises, but if you don't have line-of-sight, it's easy to imagine them being bears. I've also woken up to hear a large animal, probably a deer, startle from a resting position not 10 feet from my tent and bound away into the woods. I always thought it was a waste not to be able to know what's going on around me in camp while I am, after all, on a camping trip to connect with nature. Usually the things that "go bump in the night" are products of imagination anyway and so being able to see for myself helps to put me at ease–since reality is almost never as scary as one's own imagination.

You'll get over your fear of sleeping out in the open after a few nights. It helps if you go to an area where you know animals will be making noises so you can feel what it's like to be so exposed and still get to sleep. The first night I tarped, there was a group of elk bugling nearby for half the night and I also heard a pack of coyotes very close. However, I didn't die and I've always figured that was a good sign.

"BUT my daughter and significant other(s) are hung up on the fear of bugs that crawl or fly or badgers or skunks or wildebeast if in a bivvy or /and using a tarp"

If your question is how to get OTHER people to over come their "fear" of creepy crawlies, then I would ask why try?

For some it is a fear. others it is a comfort/discomfort issue. You may be OK with being eaten by mosquitos while you sleep, or waking up with a snake curled at the bottom of your sleeping bag (this has happened to someone once while I was cowboy camping with them, thankfully it was only a rosy boa). But you really shouldn't try to force it on others. It's actually a pretty rational fear, and was no doubt a big incentive for our ancestor to create critter proof shelters. For non-solo camping, many of the tarptents are as light as carrying two bivy bags, a larger tarp and lots of extra guylines, so weight needn't be the big issue here. In mild weather the two of us are pretty happy in a 1lb/460g Refuge-X…or for 650 grams per person we carry a Double Rainbow and deploy both rain porches to enjoy views, dual entry and covered cooking while keeping the creepy crawlies at bay.

A similar topic has come up before in the general backpacking forum with regards to women in particular being less likely to approve of shelters without bug netting. It may sound sexist, but women are a little more cautious when it comes to such things. And from a personal perspective, I was nearly put off 'camping' for life as a kid when forced to sleep rough on scouting trips. I would urge parents to seriously consider this when attempting to teach your children the *joys* of the great outdoors…staying awake all night to swat mosquitos that whine in your ear, and waking up covered in swollen itchy insect bites is about as off-putting as you can get!

"-Just do it…pack your tarp and bivy and it is all you got"

This is how I ended up getting into tarping. I was hiking in the sierra nevada and after having to carry a bear can, I didn't want to carry any more weight. I bought a ID 8×10 tarp and a thin plastic ground sheet and off I went.

After finding a good site the only thing I really check for are ants. I don't want to set down on an ant path or hill. I have never had any problems with creeply crawlies and I haven't used a bivy. For mosquitoes I use a head net. After a few days you get used to it, and I really enjoyed it much more than a tent.

Stack the deck in your favor as far as bug season goes, bring only your tarp setup and away you go. You won't have any choice.

I'd recommend camping in an area with the fewest predators to begin with. Some place where you're pretty much top of the food chain or even with it since this is all just a mental thing.

As was said previously starting in winter gets rid of the bugs and such as well.

I'm with Lynn–why try to convert your family? Isn't it better that they be comfortable (psychologically) with the outdoors? Stick with the Rainshadow for family trips and use a tarp when you're on your own. This gives you the best of all possible worlds. As Lynn says, a tarp and groundsheet big enough for 3 and 3 bivies are going to be just about as heavy as the Rainshadow, so any weight savings will be minimal. At least with the Rainshadow you do have a 360 degree view when you're lying down.

I personally prefer a tent because I backpack with an 80-lb. dog. I need a bug-free space for him as well as for me. I currently use the Gossamer Gear/Tarptent Squall Classic, just the right size for the two of us and 26 ounces. I'm considering using a tarp and bivy for fall trips, but I would never subject my dog to the clouds of mosquitoes during bug season!

Wait a second. Are you telling me that the RainShadow 2 does not have any bug protection screening? Or are you saying you have a Rainshadow 2 tent and are thinking about using just a tarp? I was thinking about getting a Rainshadow 2, but not if its not bugproof. Can someone fill me in? Thanks.

Although, I haven't tried this yet, I am planning on bringing a Ray Way Tarp with a net tent or bug bivy.

The difference is only having mesh instead of silnylon "protecting" me, but I will be able to see everything around me. I hope this way I can see the advantages of having the tarp instead of a tent. This way I can "baby step" my way to trying it out.

If that doesn't work, I will "just do it" and go for it all in one motion like ripping a band-aid off.

I wouldn't use a shelter that wasn't bug proof where there will be mosquitoes. Save the tarp for bug-free trips. As for crawling insects, giant ant world can be an annoying place to be without a tent. Otherwise, a large groundsheet is a big help for feeling safe from crawling bugs.

You might compromise a bit and bring the tent and groundsheet and if the weather is clear and it's bug free, just all decide to sleep out under the stars. Really the whole bivy/tent thing is kind of unnecessary. You can sleep under the stars with just your sleeping bag. It sounds so romantic, too.

billybooster, you should go to the hammockforums and see all the pictures of happy children

Timothy, of course the Rainshadow, like all TarpTents, has full bug screening. That's why the OP's wife and daughter prefer it to a tarp, which the OP wants to convert them to. The 360* view comes because there is a narrow screened vent along the bottom of each side of the tent, plus the screened back window and the screened front door. That provides great ventilation plus a far more "open" feel than the standard double-wall tent, where you can see out only the door.

My wife, two dogs, and I switched to a GG SpinnTwinn from our Refuge X this year…not for negligible weight savings. We enjoy not only a more open feel, but also a condensation free morning. The extra space of our large tarp allows us to skip the bivy and just enjoy the outdoors.

>and was no doubt a big incentive for our ancestor to create critter proof shelters.

Sorry, just trying to imagine a stone age man laying down for the night, laying down his spear and unpacking his pelts to air them out, eating a hearty meal of dried jerky and cereal cakes, and then hopping into his MSR Hubba. Make me chuckle a bit.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of houses with doors, windows and screens, with refrigerators, freezers and pantries, and an electric black-light insect zapper!

its not just the family its me that has to overcome the concept of being eaten alive by man eating spiders or similar!

The bivy / tarp concept is for weight purposes…and it'd be something I could use alone too…

I don't worry about much in the backcountry… except SPIDERS! That's why I can't make the transition. Spiders.