20 degree bag vs. 30 degree bag for 3 season use

I think, Lynn, that you see the situation very clearly; one MUST make survival decisions when alone and lost or injured and carrying an appropriate type/weight/amount of gear to begin with makes that easier.

I have SEEN various electronic devices fail in the remote parts of B.C. and while they certainly CAN be of great value in an emergency, it is wiser to be capable of survival without them, IMHO.

Hmmmmm……

Working at Hinton,AB, with the Canforce SAR school there was an interesting aspect of my time with the AFS. I learned a lot and gave my opinions on some issues and they were well received as one of the sargeants, a big guy from Quebec, had been at Comox, when I was with the CCG out of Parksville.

But, I do like to hear from others and could reply in kind, however, it is suppertime and Moose burgers are ready.

"I have SEEN various electronic devices fail in the remote parts of B.C"

Yeah, I imagine BC is a lot like NZ in that respect. find yourself stuck down in a gorge with dense tree cover and a broken femur, you better *hope* your PLB can find enough satellites to get a message out, or be prepared to dig in and wait until you are missed at home and (and pray you lodged pretty good travel intentions at home).

Maybe my extra safety measure is due to living in a climate that boasts 'four seasons in one day' (and also been badly injured by myself in unexpectedly cold conditions), but whatever the excuse, there sure are a lot of folks who set off on an innocent bushwalks in this part of the world that never make it home alive.

The weight difference between a 20F and 30F bag is not really that great. I say go for the warmer bag.

The weight is….weight. If it is only a few ounces, then lets add some ounces to the pack. Never know when your pack might fail. How about a 4 season tent? I mean, if you are injured it would be best to get into one and out of the 3 season conditions. Lets add some ounces here…then there. Can never be too safe. Heck, use a 10 degree bag. Why take chances in Alberta 3 season conditions.

BC is NOTHING like NZ, by the way (Its like Alberta).

Let's add some whiskey and opiates for pain control while waiting for the cavalry to rescue you ;)

"BC is NOTHING like NZ"

I don't know what that means really. You mean BC is doesn't get cold, wet, or have steep and dense tree covered gorges and valleys? Or just that it doesn't have the pleasure of four seasons in one day?

Anyway, I was guided by Mary's earlier comments:

" depends on your altitude. August conditions are quite different in the Cascades than in the Rockies."

".. the temperature was 22* at 9300 feet (Elkhart Park trailhead ). During the day it snowed a foot in …. Yesterday, conditions were similar … (snowing!) …. Last year, at this time, temperatures were in the low 20's …during the second week of August. There was frost at night… the first week of August."

I just remembered another time when I ended up needing a bag that was warmer than what I theoretically should have needed. I was sick as a dog one night (food poisoning or stomach flu??), and I think I would have froze to death if not for the help of my healthy and warm-blooded buddies who scraped together an extra bag to throw over the top of me. An extra 200g for the peace of mind is enough for me. It's saved my bacon, and lots of others have perished from lack of adequate insulation.

Yes – NZ conditions are pretty extreme compared to what we get here – in 3 season, of course. Our 4th is uh, challenging.

"Our 4th is uh, challenging."

Our 4th is uh, SnowBoarding :)

It's really difficult to have only one bag for true 3 season use. It's miserable to be cold in sub-freezing temperatures, but it's also nearly equally miserable to be too hot in warmer temps.

And worst of all is being too hot when you cover up, and too cold when you throw the sleeping bag/quilt off. A decent (full) night's sleep is worth the money (and storage space) for an extra bag to insure comfort at both ends of the range, IMHO.

I tend to agree with Lynn and Dewey on the extra warmth if you can only choose one bag. A PLB or 'Spot' tracker can be useful to help rescuers find you, but they still have to get there, which could take some time in the backcountry, especially if weather conditions are dicey. In the meantime, the PLB won't do much to keep you warm.

The injury situation makes for interesting commentary. Good to hear some different perspectives. I tend to fall in the camp that thinks that for some bits of gear a little bigger safety margin (with an additional weight penalty) is called for.

I should also say that some of you might be getting the wrong impression from my location – I lived in Edmonton until I went off to college in Houston TX (an agonizing 18 hour drive from proper mountains). Much of my previous camping/backpacking has been done in the Rockies when I have been back home for the summer. I'm in grad school right now (still in Houston, somewhat unfortunately) but have a trip to the Colorado Rockies (Breckenridge area) planning in September, another to Big Bend in November and probably some backpacking in the Arizona mountains over Christmas time. After Houston time is finished (another year), I'm thinking of moving to the Vancouver/Seattle area. Hence my request, an apologetically broad one, for a three-season bag for western North America.

I'm pretty much decided on the 20 degree bag – I think it will suit my situation a little better than a colder bag. Now I just have to decide which 20 degree bag – Feathered Friends, Western Mountaineering or Montbell. Ahhhhhhh.

Western Mountaineering and Montbell make excellent bags.

I have gear from WM, Montbell and FF; at present, I would choose WM bags before the others.

An outstanding choice, might as well have the best, would be the Valandre Mirage, but, it does not have the full zip I prefer. It has recently been used on Denali and weighs less than most 30* bags.

If, you DO prefer augmenting your bag with clothing, a practice I find works well only in extreme dry cold and makes me sweat in normal winter temps., be sure to buy a bag with larger girth than you usually need, or, the compression of the tight bag on your added insulation will just flatten it and eliminate it's value.

B.C. IS much like NZ in many regions and like Alberta, in others. It is a wonderful place, but, is now becoming too crowded and crime-ridden…same problems as in OZ and maybe Kiwi?

I have long found 15-20 degree bags to be the best for a "3 season" option. It's stood the test of time.

It is a wonderful place, but, is now becoming too crowded and crime-ridden…same problems as in OZ and maybe Kiwi?

Que? Still plenty of space here in Australia and I wouldn't say it was crime ridden. Same goes for NZ… in fact they probably have more space than ever as half of them seem to be over here ;-)

Great discussion. I agree that WM Alpinlite and FF Swallow are front runners. I've also been looking at a Marmot Helium which is substantially similar and available at backcountry and REI (good return policies):
879g Marmot Helium +15 850 fill

Thoughts?
acronym 8/18/2009 2:13 AM

Since you're talking about my neck of the woods, I'll chime in. For spring and fall in the Colorado high country, I use a 20F bag. For the warmer summer months, a 30F works well. But if I had to choose one, it would be a 20F bag with full zip.

This is a strange thread. Question: What warmth of bag should I get for use in the Rockies in 3 season. Answer: Well if you are injured…..

Why has no one discussed whether the bag will be used in a tent, bivy, under a tarp? Are we expecting convective heat loss?

Why no discussion of sleeping pads and conductive heat loss? The R-value of your pad will play a significant role in warmth and sleeping bag loft requirement.

Shelter is a Tarptent Double Rainbow – so a little breezier than your standard double wall, but not much.

The pad I normally use has an r-value of 3.8. Though if I want to go lighter, I will sometimes use a closed-cell foam pad with r=2.5.

i have not used Marmot bags, but have a friend who has the helium and he likes it. Meets rating easily, at least for him,and he has taken it colder with no problems. If it is seriously cheaper, probably a good buy. You can't go wrong with the choices, but fit is more important now. Try and get to REI if you have one near.

Aaron, I am also trying to lighten my load by switching to a lighter 30 degree bag for summer Sierra treks. The summer temps can easily drop below freezing at high elevation during the summer so I have replaced a couple of layer articles in my clothing system with the Montbell Down UL Inners Pants and Parka. These items weigh 8oz and 9oz respectively. As I said, these replace some articles of clothing for me that were actually heavier but they also provide insurance for very cold nights.