Calorie Deficit Question

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

It comes down more to each persons body and stomach. I tend to eat either fresh or freeze dried fruit and for me it digests easy.

OTOH things like Cliff Bars and nuts just sit in my stomach like a lead brick.

It is very much a YMMV thing on how a person handles ANY food.

[Greg Mihalik]

Any lurkers out there know about the suppression of the "insulin response" in athletes working at or near the aerobic/anaerobic threshold?

A long time ago I Thought I learned that it is very muted at high work loads… so I poked around and found this:

(Take your time on this. At least read the last sentence.)

"Physical training causes hypoinsulinemia and enhanced insulin sensitivity. Insulin sensitivity is also enhanced by a single bout of exercise. However, changes in beta-cell responsiveness with acute exercise are ill defined.

To clarify these relationships intravenous glucose tolerance tests were performed in 1) physically trained rats (3 different levels), 48 h after the last bout of exercise; 2) untrained rats, 0.5, 4, and 24 h after a single bout of exercise; or 3) sedentary control rats.

The total area under the glucose-stimulated insulin response curve (GSIR) was negatively correlated with total distance run during training (r = -0.45, P less than 0.05), whereas glucose tolerance was improved (P less than 0.005 vs. controls) with intensive training.

GSIR was suppressed by 38% (P less than 0.01 vs. controls) 0.5 h after a single bout of exercise. This effect persisted for 4 h but was not present after 24 h.

These results indicate that a single bout of exercise induces suppression of GSIR which lasts less than 24 h.

In contrast, physical training induces prolonged suppression (for at least 48 h) of GSIR, proportional to the intensity of training, and improved glucose tolerance."

Which I think says "just because you can't use the glucose Right Now you don't have to sequester it as fat"

The point being that IF your gut can handle it your muscles will get to use it regardless of the type of carbohydrate. (and that is a big IF)

I'm way out on a limb here….any Exercise Phys folks want to jump in? Knowledge is SO much better than conjecture.

[Christopher Plesko]

What's the question? My dad is a diabetic due to panc cancer and has to turn his pump almost off during bike rides and run because insulin sensitivity is much higher during exercise. Definitely normal.

[Hiking Malto]

Did the JMT last year in nine days and over half the SHR this year and those trips taught me that that Im better off with lower density foods that I can actually eats vs. high calorie per ounce foods. For perspective my ten day average this year was 3500/person with an average calorie per ounce of 147. BUT, I ate nowhere near the 3500 calories because I lose my appetite due to altitude and literally had to wash the food down with water and we ended up with a lot of extra food. So next trip I will back off the calories per ounce and make sure I eat everything I take with me. So my advice is too be careful maximizing your calories per ounce, it could backfire.

Also, why resupply at Vermillion and MTR? They are a day apart.

[Laurie Ann March]

I'm diabetic, like Christopher's Dad but I am not on a pump. When I hike or paddle I have to basically cut my basal insulin down to practically nothing (4 to 6 units every 24 hours as opposed to the 10 to 14 units I normally take at home) and also cut my oral meds in half. On top of that I have to increase carb intake – if I don't then I risk a hypoglycemic episode because insulin sensitivity is increased dramatically. On our last paddle trip we had some rugged portaging and I ended up having to take emergency glucose (Dex4) because I was going low. I exercise at home but it just isn't the same kind of intensity or duration that backpacking is.

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Mike, ie. GoBlueHiker has a pump. You might pick his brains for questions on that.
http://www.rainforesttreks.com/diabetes.asp is his website.

[Anonymous]

"those trips taught me that that Im better off with lower density foods that I can actually eats vs. high calorie per ounce foods."

That is THE challenge in putting together a high calorie/ounce diet, IMO. IME it can be done, but it ain't easy. My limit so far is 137 cal/oz, and even then it gets difficult around day 7 of a 10-11 day trip.

"So next trip I will back off the calories per ounce and make sure I eat everything I take with me."

Greg,

Would you be willing to post your 147 cal/oz diet and your lower cal/oz diet? I, for one, would be really interested with how you go about it. It's an ongoing project of mine.

[Scott Bentz]

We just got back from our JMT thru hike. 14 days which included a rest day at Vermillion. It was everything we wanted it to be. Beautiful, fun, and demanding. I can't stop thinking about all of those amazing passes. I loved all of them, even when hurting. Since I started this thread I thought I would comment on what I experienced.

After starting the thread and hearing many of your comments I went back and re-did some of my food. I got rid of some bars, added more nuts and stuff like Pringles, etc. Looking for calories vs weight, etc. I probably averaged about 125 cal./oz. Better than the 100 cal./oz. I started with.

My typical day included :
Breakfast: powdered milk with oatmeal and a package of Carnation Instant Breakfast. Then between breakfast and lunch I had either a bar or two, trail mix, nuts, etc.

Lunch: Peanut butter and wheat thins or salami and triscuit or nothing but whatever I could find since I could not eat the peanut butter. After lunch I did the same by carrying a bar or nuts or pringles, etc.

Dinner: A double dehydrated meal with added veggies and EV Olive Oil. I never got tired of my meals but did enjoy some much more than others.

I figured about 3,200 to 3,400 calories a day but am sure I did not eat all of those calories. Many times during the day I may have gotten a bit undernourished and had to forcefully make myself eat since I could feel myself getting a bit sluggish. Peanut M & M's did the trick along with a lot of water. We hiked an average of about 18 miles a day. I lost weight but since I don't use a scale I don't how much. I just know pants fit better. I also craved something in my water. I used a bit of Gatorade which I always use 1/2 strength while hiking and sometimes added a packet of Crystal Light.

The one thing that really surprised me was that I got tired of certain foods so much that many times I had a gag reflex when trying to eat. After awhile I could not eat any peanut butter whatsoever. I WAS able to eat peanuts though. Go figure. I had a ton of cashews but had a hard time for a few days even seeing them. What I never got tired of were Balance Bars, Planters Big Bars, Cliff Mojo Bars, M & M's, (peanut and regular), milk, oatmeal, etc.

I had the fortune of running into Reihnold Metzger and his wife Karen who were also hiking the JMT. We hiked with them for the first 5 days off and on before we got a day ahead. He is a big proponent of FAT in the backpackers diet; especially, while working so hard. He has a ton of Macadamia nuts in his diet. At resupply in Vermillion I saw not only Macadamia nuts but Cheez-Its, cheese, M & M's, etc. His wife wanted to eat a bit more "healthy" but he had his own favorites.

In the long run, I would do as others above have stated and brought some different items. I will go into my canister, which should be empty, but it's not, and see what I did not like.

Also, someone mentioned the resupply at Vermillion and Muir Ranch. Since this was my first thru hike on the JMT my thinking was that I could get supplies and dinner at Vermillion and supply myself a few days PAST Muir Ranch so when I got to Muir Ranch I was only adding a few more days. Also, we were all using Bearikade Weekenders which are too small for large resupplies. If I knew what I know now, how we had to go off trail and coupled with the pace we were hiking, I would have just done the resupply at Vermillion. Live and learn.

All in all we did fine. The two teenagers did great as expected. They were strong but lost weight. They didn't have much to lose but they did lose weight. My brother (52) and I (49) did fine with the food. He often did not want to eat at night since it was hard to just stop hiking and then eat. I didn't have that problem. I for some reason could eat at night.

The trip was great. I would change my diet a bit at each resupply since it could get me out of the routine. I hope to go back in no more than 3 years and do it again. I just have to wonder if I want to reverse and go South to North.

Thanks for all of the comments on this thrread.

Scott

[Michael Meiser]

Chad Miller (chadnsc) wrote:

"I myself am 6'-2", 225 pounds and typically burn 9,600 calories over a 20 mile day (1,00-1,300 calories an hour). I know this for a fact as I was a participant in a study that measured caloric expenditure using an electric monitoring device strapped over my arm.

Now the OP's caloric need and metabolism will differ from mine but I typically eat 4,000 calories a day while backpacking. I have found that this number of calories lets me keep doing the miles without feeling worn out. Obviously with a 5,600 daily calorie deficit I lose weight but not enough to slow me down."

and in response to "Wow. At a 5600 cal/day deficit I'd be severely at hospitalization risk after a week. That's one downside to being lean. For the op, keep in mind 3500 cals = 1 lb."

Chad responded:
"The funny thing is I'm a muscular built man with a normal (13 %) body fat. I think that my caloric expenditure has to do with my faster hiking pace combined with my large muscular build. I of course have fine tuned my trail diet to minimize the loss of lean muscle by eating diet with high protein, high complex carbohydrates, and moderate fats.

575 gram of carbohydrate (2,300 calories)
200 grams of protein (800 calories)
100 grams of fat (900 calories)"

== end quote ==

Thank you for posting chad!

I rarely get good info on big people with high metabolisms… mostly when I post or chime in the conversation people at most give me the same "wow" and neither they nor I get much out of it except some enlightenment on how ridiculously high my calorie consumption is by comparison.

Yours is really good information. I always feel like I'm in the twilight zone when I read about people's "heavy" 27oz of food in a day. On most days of hard bikepacking I couldn't consume enough calories to cover my output even if I consumed 27 ounces of straight cashews. And I love cashews! LOL.

I do quite a bit of endurance cycling and bikepacking (the ultralight backpacking / back roads and trails equivelent of bike touring) including what might be called ultra-endurance by even the most rigorous ultra-endurance riders.

Though I don't as a rule participate in races, I do ride long and hard. I've been known to cover 900 miles in a week, 360 miles in 48 hours or over 200 miles in about 16 hours, and these are slow compared to endurance racing standards. Indeed… these are my ideas of fun. Just as I'm sure your idea of fun is 20 miles in a day.

People are sometimes amazed when I ride with them at speed given my size (260+ lbs / 6'5"), but what really knocks them out is how much water I consume while riding. They're quick to discount it as an aberration but it's not. It simply does not compute for them that calorie consumption and water needs climb so high with size.

Because I don't snack much while riding most people don't realize how much food I'm consuming they just see a side effect of my burning calories, which is tremendous water consumption.

BTW, I am very curious how much water you consume on these 20 mile days?

I don't snack that heavily when I ride, not a huge snacker in general.

When I'm out riding things like powerbars make no sense to me. I don't need 250 calories, or even 500 calories. I need something more substantial so while i do suplement heavily with drink and electrolyte mixes in my water I usually break for 1000-1500 calories at least every 2-3 hours depending on ride intensity and weather.

To put it into terms some can relate to, if I'm in need of calories on occasion I'll stop in McDonalds and order 2 McDouble cheeseburgers (390cal), a double cheeseburger (440 cal), and a hot caramel sundae (340 cal) for about 1560 calories. Not the healthiest way to intake calories, but then I only stop at McDonalds on occasion and it ends up being only about 1/3 to 1/4 of my daily caloric intake on those occasions.

Other lunches might be a large subway sub or a half a pizza or calzone (with the other half wrapped up in foil for dinner).

On such a day I'll already have had a good breakfast around sunup, eat the above lunch around 11am, stop for some fruit, a sugary snack, and an energy drink like gatoraid in the middle of the afternoon, and stop again at about 5pm for a quick dinner, then will ride another 30-60 miles before having another 1500-2500 calories to digest and help me recover while I sleep.

Such a day would see me at 120-140 road miles and if on trail and backroad about 80-100 miles.

This last meal is the most important to me, it's where I'll sit down, relax sit around the campfire or stove, slow cook… and I like to eat things that'll take time to digest… typically some sort of meat, carbs like noodles or rice with sauce, and if I've ridden past a grocery store or farm stand in the evening some sort of fresh vegetables or fruit. (Even an occasional can of green beans, corn, fruit cocktail or some such.)

BTW, in the summer I'll carry 2-3 days of food, if I'm more remote and in the winter I'll carry about 4-5 days food. Mostly though I'm in and out of civilization and employ what I call a "hit and run" technique.

Anyway, I haven't prior to my up-coming trip actually set a goal to count calories. I just use my experience.

That said, it has come time to really sit down and nail down just how many calories I'm consuming on these long rides so I can then start to figure out just how many calories I am actually burning and how many I need.

I think the best way to do this is not calories per hour since ride intensity varies, but calories per mile.

I do wonder if any backpackers use this "calorie per mile" technique or just the "calories per day"?

Right now I have no idea how many calories I burn in a day to be honest. I'm still trying to figure it out. The only way I know to do this is to track everything I typically eat for a week or so on tour and weigh myself daily… or at least at the end of the week given I don't carry a scale when riding.

Given the amount I eat tracking it all will be tough, but I'm going to make it a goal of my next trip, a January hiking / bikepacking trip down the blue ridge parkway and just carry a small notebook with me.

I expect it's quite possible I could consume 10,000 calories a day and still loose weight. Some people might find that unfathomable but they're not 6'5" and winter brings its own issues.

Given my experience with winter touring over the last couple years I'll probably do is aim for about 6k calories see how I feel and then adjust my calories upward as necessary. I can stand to loose some weight but I don't ever want to go below about 235 for health reasons.

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