Beartooth Wilderness 6-day list

There are three books by James Gary Shelton, the first is "Bear Encounter Survival Guide".

US Distributor: Partners Publishers Group, Inc.
2325 Jarco Drive, Holt, Michigan, USA 48842
Tel: 1-800-336-3137/Fax: 517-694-0617

I VERY strongly suggest buying and reading (several times) at least the first of these, the one I give the title of above. This is the material now used in BC and other Canadian jurisdictions by the Forest Service(s) and Game Depts. plus the Workman's Comp. depts. to train workers to increase safety in bear country.

I am a former employee of these depts., my wife is a former "outpost RN" in the Yukon and NWT and is now a "boffin" in the BC-WCB ministry.Between us, we have considerable experience with this issue and Gary's book is THE BEST info. now available.

If, you do buy all three books, you may be put off by some of his comments and attitudes, I was and I have been in the BC bush for considerably longer than he has. However, just ignore the "clearcut and burn" type rants and concentrate on what he is presenting in respect of safety techniques AND, IF, you choose to carry spray, his method is the ONLY way to go, IMHO.

MY choice, would be my cuetom Grizzly rifle, a well-trained dog, such as a Laika or Karelian, first. Second, I would probably go with the dogs and spray, TWO cans, at least and MY last choice would be my .44Mag. Ruger Redhawk 5.5", with my handloads and I ALWAYS carry and use my horn, wish I had one when I started working alone in the mountains in 1965.

Still, it is your MIND that makes the final difference and NO weapon or technique will protect a panicky person from an agitated Grizzly.I hope all of this helps people here as I enjoy bears and have spent a lot of time observing them and I hope to do this until I am about 105 or so!

This guy is right about the mind. I'd like to read the book he's suggesting, too, but the well-trained mind has the highest effectiveness to weight ratio of any bear deterrent, really.

Due to the fact that you need to a be a lawyer to accurately decipher gun laws where I backpack in bear country, I usually roll a combination of bear bangers, then spray. (As well as all your normal good practices) After that it's to the knife and the 1% chance that would be at being effective. ;) I think staying calm would be most important, after watching that video there isn't much time to react and I would think calmly bringing whatever anti-bear method you choose into action would be the most difficult thing. But I'm no bear expert.

On second thought maybe I should just sit down and decipher the laws, bear-banger device and more in one. ;) (Dual use?)

This kind of turned into a bear spray debate but I'm going to comment on your gear instead, as that's what you asked about.

These suggestions have already been made by other posters but I feel they're worth reiterating.

1. Backpack – a 37 oz backpack is too heavy for backpacking (unless you're going to be carrying dozens of pounds of food or climbing gear, which you obviously are not).

2. Crocs (water/camp shoes) – leave them at home.

Those two suggestions alone will save you two pounds. If you're unfamiliar with hiking in grizzly country you should acquire a can of bear spray and do some research on how to safely carry and use it. I've spent hundreds of nights in the backcountry without it and I've spent hundreds of more nights in the backcountry with it. Meh.

Thanks for the input Sam. I'm certainly still in the process of reducing weight so some of my gear is just not up to snuff. It'll happen, but over time. I do worry about water crossing when the temps can be down around freezing. I'm certainly not trudging through in my trail runners and then standing around camp while my toes freeze. I like the ability to get back into something dry, but maybe I'm just a pansy.

"1. Backpack – a 37 oz backpack is too heavy for backpacking (unless you're going to be carrying dozens of pounds of food or climbing gear, which you obviously are not)."

37oz is not too heavy if the pack fits well and can carry an occasional load. For many, features and adjustable harnesses add weight.

Of course, there can also be issues with durability with some UL packs. This is one area that I can not allow any type of failure in the field. Maybe I am paranoid but much of this is going to be dependent on where and what conditions your trek in.

A heavier pack can make the load transfer more effective thereby reducing shift and pressure points ultimately creating a lighter pack. ;)

David wrote:
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37oz is not too heavy if the pack fits well and can carry an occasional load. For many, features and adjustable harnesses add weight…

A heavier pack can make the load transfer more effective thereby reducing shift and pressure points ultimately creating a lighter pack

Mike Replies:
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Remember, this is a lightweigh camping forum. With that in mind, the 37 oz backpack is not a lightweight item. It is a "traditional" item.

THus, 37 ounces is too heavy.

The way to reduce "shift and pressure points" is to carry less gear, and keep the load light. I can easily do a week with full rations and full water and be under 21 pounds.

I am not worried about durability because I am careful with my gear. And because everything weighs less, I can more easily care for the gear.

Mike, Sam… let's be real. 80 ounces is the realm of "traditional" backpacks of current day. Lightweight "traditional" packs rarely dip under 64 ounces. The 37 ounces you're talking about is just over 2 pounds. Very, very few reach that. And the reality is that for some people, and some trips, framed packs do work better. Obviously we're all here and the site is based on lightweight to UL philosophy… but let's keep that philosophy grounded in reality, too, eh? Personally, I'd love to have an "insanely heavy" 48 ounce Catalyst. Carries like a dream!

Sure, I have a frameless pack, and it's great up to around 20 pounds. I could lie to myself and say it's comfortable beyond that, but the reality is that any number of framed packs I've owned or worn are much more comfortable when I near 30 pounds… with an 8-10 pound base, that's getting into about a 10 day trip w/food and water.

Anyway, my cents…

EDIT: Some "trekking" packs still come in around 110 ounces… Ouch!

Ah, but when someone asks openly for an opinion on a gear list I’m going to answer that question purely from my point of view. My point of view happens to be that of one who will highly recommend others to shoot for a sub-ten pound base-weight (particularly including a sub two-pound pack and a sub two-pound sleeping bag/quilt).

There are instances in which I would highly recommend a frame pack and there are times when I would recommend a far heavier sleeping bag/quilt but in this situation that is not the case. I have four years of living and backpacking in the Northern Rockies and I feel those years are enough for me to make safe, educated suggestions to someone about the weight and safety of their gear choices.

My recommendations are based purely on minimums. If someone chooses not to purchase a new, lighter pack to save weight and decides instead to stick with a heavier pack that will be more useful to them as it is easier to use for other/heavier trips then I understand completely. But, that being said, when someone asks my advice for how to lighten up or improve their list I will offer the same advice that I have found in the time and years I spent improving my personal gear lists.

http://samh.net/backpacking/?do=showpage&id=9

Mike, Sam – thanks for the replies. But I will stand by my stance that 37oz for a pack is not too heavy based on my reasons suggested above.

Given both of your extreme experience and the OP's lessor experience, it may be wiser to provide reasons as to why you think the 37oz is too heavy or alternatively why the Vapor Trail is too heavy.

Mike, if we take the stance that this is a lightweight backpacking forum, which I would of course not argue, where does it state that 37oz is not a lightweight pack, especially if it has a frame. Is there a manifesto that you have privy knowledge of? Better yet, what is the weight of a lightweight pack? A lightweight tent? A lightweight bag? ETC

Ironically, I can quote out of the Lightweight Backpacking & Camping: A Field Guide to Wilderness Hiking Equipment, Technique, and Style which suggests that the Vapor Trail is, in fact, a lightweight pack. Or link to reviews of this pack on this very site, which as you thankfully pointed out to me, is a lightweight backpacking forum.

Light is good but it does not exist in a vacuum. There are often other factors to consider when considering gear, certainly if one wants higher durability, lower cost, or wider ranging functionality of the product.

BPL Article With Heavy Packs

I suppose BPLs guidelines have changed in the last year. Perhaps the new BPL branded packs made in China are going to come in well under 37 oz? And US made ULA Catalysts or just about any pack with a frame and hipbelt will be prohibited from mention on this forum.

Gotta agree with Tom and Dave.

37oz is getting towards the upper end of lightweight packs, but there's no way they should be ruled out of consideration.

Even if you're aiming for a sub-10 baseweight a 37oz pack is absolutely possible.

Packs are like shoes… it's no good carrying one that doesn't fit you right just because it is a bit lighter. Carry comfort trumps lightweight every time as far as I am concerned, because the extra weight is so insignificant. An uncomfortable pack, on the other hand can be extremely annoying on the trail.

That's not to say that most people are unable to find a sub-37oz pack which is perfectly comfortable for them. But an extra 10 ounces on the hipbelt and/or frame is weight 'well-spent' IMO.

WHY is it, that some posters here feel it so necessary to make sweeping generalizations concerning gear and the situations one might encounter while out backpacking?

It just amazes me that anyone would say that a given choice of a gear item by another poster is …too heavy… in such an absolute manner. I realize that this forum is dedicated to light backpacking and that many here do not go on extended trips in really remote wilderness, such as the "Northern Rockies" of north-central BC; however, there ARE so many variables among people, trips, abilities and usage of gear, that I think it a bit "over the top" to declare that such and such a gear item is not suitable for what someone whom you have never met wants to use it for.

My backpacks weigh between 7.5 and 11 lbs. and they suit MY needs perfectly, as I often DO carry heavy loads and am alone in places where I must have an extensive first-aid and emergency kit plus adequate shelter. That said, someone who hikes the well -trodden trails of much of the "Lower 48" may well BE far better off with a 3 lb. pack, I would never decry THAT choice as I hope that others would recognize that My needs differ from theirs.

If I was going to carry 28 pounds on my back, I may want to use a 27 ounce pack as well.
When I look at the list posted, I can only think, that I don't take 1/3 of the extra just weight that is on the list.

I agree that there are so many things that can be shared that would be able to cut his base weight in half.

Then the 27 ounce pack would be too heavy.

Dave, what you really need to do, if you want to be considered to have a light weight base and skin out weight is to look over some other list and see where all of your extra weight is added.

Once you follow the lead, you will have so much room in your pack, you wouldn't even think about taking it.

This weight can especially be taken off due to the fact that you have 2 others going with you.

When i first started getting into U/L packing about 8 years ago, I was right about the same weight you were.
I tried to cut every piece of gear weight in half.
Most of that weight was just realizing that I didn't even use a lot of gear that was in my pack.
Once I cut the weight in half, I've been trying to cut that weight in half again.

To me, a warm sleeping bag means less clothing.
a light wpb bivy or wpb bag means that a 4 ounce(or less) tarp can be used.

That is when you really start saving weight.
What you are bringing is just light major manufactured gear that is not meant to be U/L as a total system.

Slash slash slash. That is the only way you will get it down to the u/l weight we want you to.

Would it not be false savings to share certain items to cut pack weight – to say that your pack is "x" amount and crow about it. When if you were solo you would NOT have those weight savings?

I say, get your pack weight to where you want it, based on going solo.

That is an honest set of weight, one that can be maintained on any trip.

As well, what happens if on a trip a partner drops out? If they have to walk out they won't have all the gear they need, nor will you. It sets one up for questionable safety.

I also think water is a personal choice for how much one carries.

While it is the heaviest thing in your pack, it is also one of the most important things you can carry.

2L isn't that much really. I am willing to carry that much just so I have it. If you are a water guzzler or tend to overheat, by all means carry it! If you are a lucky water sipper who seems to get by on nothing, well….1L might be enough.

As well, it depends on the heat, humidity and water sources. If water is a mile apart, not such a big issue. But when you add in a couple miles and a 2 or 3K gain in open sun, water becomes more important.

So before you carry less water, do check out the water sources carefully.

Those are two very sound posts, one needs to always consider the variables in where/what one is doing, BEFORE making gear choices.

I will go alone into the most remote places in Canada and have for decades. I WILL NOT compromise my safety and endanger SAR crews by being poorly equipped and I ALWAYS carry water, often 2 liters or more.

If/when I have some spare $$$$$, I would love to have Dan McHale build me my dream pack of Dyneema and this would weigh considerably less than the Mystery Ranch packs I now find so satisfactory….BUT, the dollars involved would also pay for a part of my flight into where I intend to spend a solo month next year, so………

"Horses for courses", IMHO.

Mike,
I really respect your insight and experience–your posts have been very helpful on a number of topics.

But I'm not so sure about this:

"Remember, this is a lightweigh camping forum. With that in mind, the 37 oz backpack is not a lightweight item. It is a "traditional" item."

I own a >37 oz pack (Osprey 58), purchased partly based on the "highly recommended" rating from this magazine, and other recommendations on these forums. Obviously it is not an ultralight pack, but BPL seems to consider it lightweight. Perhaps there is an internal debate amongst BPL staffers as to what defines "lightweight"–if so, that's fine, but I would like to know about it, rather than have one or two staffers make statements which seem to contradict the magazine's position.

When I post on the BPL forums I'm typically posting my own personal thoughts and opinions, not necessarily those of BPL. If an individual wants my opinion on how to save weight and they have a 37 oz. pack I'm going to suggest they try a frameless pack. This isn't because I don't like the Vapor Trail (I love Granite Gear and have and still do own dozens of their products). Also, this isn't because I want someone to purchase something made by the company I work for (Granite Gear makes their stuff in China as well by the way). I also happen to own two packs from ULA made right here in the good ol' USA. If someone wants advice on how to save weight from their gear list I'm going to provide my opinions. I don't see why others would argue against it – they should instead provide their own opinions regarding the OPs questions.

"Thanks for the input Sam. I'm certainly still in the process of reducing weight so some of my gear is just not up to snuff. It'll happen, but over time. I do worry about water crossing when the temps can be down around freezing. I'm certainly not trudging through in my trail runners and then standing around camp while my toes freeze. I like the ability to get back into something dry, but maybe I'm just a pansy."

Hello David,
A solution to your problem which is lighter than crocs is goretex socks. I use non-goretex running shoes and carry goretex socks. I can cross a cold stream in just my shoes and then put on my socks and waterproof socks to keep my socks dry. For short trips in camp goretex socks can be used as slippers.

Are you all carrying 2 person tents and stoves? If not why not allocate some weight to your friends

Wow, this is the thread that just wont quit. Thanks to everyone for the great suggestions. There seems to be a lot of discussion on what constitutes "lightweight". Maybe someone could write an article with a table that present the acceptable weights for all pieces of gear so there wont be any more misunderstanding. Personally I don't care. I know that many of the principles of lightweight backpacking appeal to me and I love that I'm able to learn about them from the incredibly experienced people on this site. However, the point of my backpacking trips is to experience the wonderful outdoors and have a great time doing it. If I need to carry a 37oz pack to do that, then it's ok with me. Of course, the more I learn, the less I need to carry. So inevitably my overall weights will continue to go down.

Thanks again!
-Dave

…the more I learn, the less I need to carry…

Well, no, this is not always the case, no offence to anyone intended here.

The amount or weight you …need to carry…is a result of what you are going to do, how long you will be doing it and where you will be doing it. The gear and supplies one requires for a week's hike, solo, over "The Earl Grey Pass" in S.E.B.C. or up the Kechika River in northwestern B.C. are quite different and tend to weigh more than what one would use for a trek of equal length in southern Cali. or along the AT, for example.

We have an old "lifesaving trail" here in B.C., the "West Coast Trail" and it is hugely popular with both B.C.ers and tourist backpackers. Some jog this trail and carry absolutely minimal gear….BUT, there are LOTS (by BC standards) of people and even a CCG Light Station there, so, you will have help if you are injured.

In most of B.C. and even more so in Canada's northern regions, vast, harsh, empty and no place to take chances, you will never see another person on a week's solo hike and you NEED to be able to survive an accident with what is in your pack….hence, it will weigh more.

So, I think that one cannot really state that such and such is too heavy or should never be carried, UNTIL, one considers the specific situation concerned. It is better to carry a 30 lb. pack as I usually do for 3-5 day jaunts and have everything you need, rather than cut it to 17 lbs. and not have an item or two that might well keep you alive until help reaches you, should an emergency situation happen.

Dave,

I'm late posting on bear spray because I was camping in the Slough Creek area of Yellowstone Park, just south of the Absarokas. In four days our group saw twelve bears, most of them uncomfortably near the trail. Slough is generally flat; on a "normal" Beartooth or Absaroka trail it would have been very easy to have come upon one (or two – most were a mother with cub)very suddenly. Everyone should carry it, as Mike says on an easily accessible holster.

September usually has the best weather for backpacking the Beartooth-Absaroka area but also greatly increased traffic, with many stock parties. You might also check Montana's hunting regulations to see if you will be competing with hunters (and outfitters) when you will be there. If so consider some bright colors for safety's sake.

Wow – this thread has a life of it's own.

I made a comment in this thread about a 37 ounce pack being a "traditional" piece of gear, and NOT lightweight. That is all me, my personal opinion, and I didn't dwell on it before I added it to the forum.

This thread got started at the same time as a thread on the GoLite JAM2.

(link)
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=22705&disable_pagination=1

There was a lot of back and forth as people noted just what they were cutting off to get their pack even lighter. I really get into this kind of discussion, I find it exciting and inspiring. (and fun!) I got a brand new GoLite JAM pack from 26 ounces down to 19 ounces, and I enjoyed every beautiful snip of the scissors. I'll be taking this 19 oz pack into the northern rockies for 6-days next week. That's a 18 ounce savings over the 37 ounce pack in the gear list on this thread. Is that a big deal? Not really, but I just think it's FUN to figure out a tidy way to shave off those ounces.

= = =

Now, I enjoy going thru these gear lists. People ask for advice, and I chime in. I also like giving BOLD advice. I've found that the benefits of a light pack are hugely rewarding for me personally. And it seems like I play the role of the zealot.

What is the better style of pack weight reduction? Shaving a little off here and there, and reducing weight over a long time frame? Or, being bold, and truly re-thinking the paradigm? No good answer here, but I have had only good experiences from aggressively trying to lighten my load.

= = =

I'll add that I am very familiar with the Beartooth terrain, and camping in the northern rockies. I have done a LOT of trips around here longer than 6-days, so I feel well suited to share my insights. I teach advanced lightweight camping for two different schools. And I have taken total beginner campers out into the northern Rockies with the back-pack weighting under 25 ounces. For me – I find this experience is hugely rewarding.

Mike and Sam – I think I can with confidence say on behalf of the collective membership, that we appreciate your posts and inputs for obvious reasons. I have scoured over both of your personal websites several times for UL and SUL tidbits to help my own approach. This is why I continue to be a member (for the past 3 years) and why these types of discussions are healthy for the forum.

My comment(s) were not directed as any sort of attack but instead to illicite discussion around generalizations. I don't use a Vapor Trail so this is not in any way a defence of the pack.

Traditional backpacking information is full of generalizations. For example, freestanding tents are more stable, hipbelt tensioners are required, high ankle leather boots are essential for the backcountry, etc. What we need on this forum, especially from the BPL staff, are specifics around the recommendations. You both mention "personal opinion" (thanks for the links to the gear lists Sam) but why is 37oz too heavy for a 'framed' pack? If it is in consideration of all of the gear on the OP's list then this should be part of the discussion. If it is just 'heavy' because, I would like to know why.

In any event, lets leave this side track alone and I apologize to Dave (CamperDave) for the digression.

Regards,