BPL Membership

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Evan

> information that should be free

An interesting statement, but WHY should information be free? How do you justify this claim?

If you stop and think about it, almost every other commodity in this world costs money, one way or another.

In most if not all cases that information, or rather knowledge, has cost someone money to obtain. You can't learn about the performance of a pack (for instance) without a) buying one and b) taking it out on a trip. Both have a cost.

No, I am not having a go at you. I am asking you to justify your claim.

Cheers

[Anonymous]

"An interesting statement, but WHY should information be free? How do you justify this claim?

If you stop and think about it, almost every other commodity in this world costs money, one way or another."

Increasingly, information is NOT free, particularly in the USA. An entire industry devoted to the gathering, collating, and SELLING of information(much of it personal), has sprung up. If any bit of information is perceived to be of interest to any significant group, it will soon be for sale. It's the American way. ;-}

IMO, information gained by diligent research involving sigificant expenditure of time, energy, and analytical effort is at least as deserving of compensation as the product of some shameless parasite who gathers the personal information of very large numbers of people and assembles it into marketing lists for sale to commercial interests.

What is available on this website would be a bargain at twice the cost, again, IMO.

[A. B.]

I didn't imply that all information should be free but something like a pack review or movie review isn't something I would pay for. I know there are plenty of early adopters who buy products and who are willing to share their opinions on it. The internet is great because it allows people to share their experiences with others and I can go out and find those experiences. I like to use amazon.com and other sites to read reviews from other people. Forums are also good for gathering experiences and anecdotes.

In short, it's nice to learn from others experiences but I wouldn't pay to do so. I also wouldn't charge someone for my opinion.

[Anonymous]

"I know there are plenty of early adopters who buy products and who are willing to share their opinions on it."

Hi Evan,

True, and the member gear reviews here are accessible to everyone. However, the Premium Content reviews that you pay for with you membership fee are conducted by people with a generally higher level of expertise and are a rigorous exercise that entails a lot of time, energy, and analytical effort. In all fairness, wouldn't you agree they should be compensated? Personally, I find that integrating information gleaned from both sources is a very valuable part of my decision making process when evaluating gear. It has saved me a lot of my own time, energy, analysis, and, yes, money on several occasions.

[Lynn Tramper]

I think the difference between a reader review and the BPL reviews is the lack of 'evidence based' observation from most reader reviews. Whether it's a stove, pack, sleeping mat or whatever, BPL often does rigorous comparisons using a range of scientific equipment and training not available to the average gear reviewer. It's a lot more than just "I really like this piece of gear".

[Chris Benson]

"I think the difference between a reader review and the BPL reviews is the lack of 'evidence based' observation from most reader reviews."

Definitely. Case in point, the analysis in the Carbon Monoxide articles helped me choose my next canister stove. One could read countless user reviews, not to mention many magazines and pay sites, and never get that information.

[Brad Groves]

First, it's 25 bucks. Why fuss over it? How much do you spend a week at coffee shops or on convenience store sodas? I guarantee the information and community you gain from a BPL membership far outweighs whatever else you could spend 25 bucks on. And if one or two bits of info you glean from the membership saves you some money when you buy gear, or makes your next trips more enjoyable, then I'd say it's a remarkably cheap investment.

Second, if you wouldn't pay for others experiences, and wouldn't expect someone to charge for their opinions, then by extension I suppose you could argue that all doctor visits should be free. Do you think the medical community should be reimbursed for their opinions? Perhaps that seems like an absurd comparison, but at its root I think the comparison is fair. Your life isn't in the balance when it comes to backpacking stuff… although one could argue that your backpacking life could be left hanging in the balance…

[A. B.]

Comparing to doctors is hardly fair and you already recognize this as a strawman so let's ignore that.

I just don't think backpacking requires in depth analysis in order to have a fulfilling experience. I think the casual anecdotes from fellow enthusiasts are sufficient in order to decide upon some gear. But then again, I don't fret over a few ounces here and there.

[Anonymous]

"I just don't think backpacking requires in depth analysis in order to have a fulfilling experience. I think the casual anecdotes from fellow enthusiasts are sufficient in order to decide upon some gear."

A perfectly valid position which implicitly recognizes that certain information, extraneous to a fulfilling backpacking experience, is not worth paying for and, therefore, shall remain inaccessible. Issue resolved.

[George Phoenix]

"I just don't think backpacking requires in depth analysis in order to have a fulfilling experience. I think the casual anecdotes from fellow enthusiasts are sufficient in order to decide upon some gear."

You don't even need to make use of this site at all to have a fulfilling backpacking experience. But this is state-of-the-art, cutting edge backpacking advice. I make a profit every time I head out!

[Lynn Tramper]

In my experience, your average GP's advice is not worth much unless you know what you need (say you just want a prescription written). Most medical doctors are notorious for basing their advice on anecdotal and pharmaceutically motivated critria rather than evidence based. If I were you, I would read up before you head to your doctor for advice!

[Robert Bryant]

"In my experience, your average GP's advice is not worth much unless you know what you need (say you just want a prescription written). Most medical doctors are notorious for basing their advice on anecdotal and pharmaceutically motivated critria rather than evidence based. If I were you, I would read up before you head to your doctor for advice!"

very true. i spend decades untreated for an underactive thyroid. went to the doctor plenty of times through the years for and they told me to loose weight, not one of them checked my bloodwork. i had to lay it all out for my doc to even check my blood and even then he was skeptical. its like the medical community is retarded or something.

[Tim Testa]

And to think, all this over a simple question. Maybe next time I won't ask about membership opinions :)

Anyways. Here is what I have concluded. Im a poor college student who barely as anytime to work the kind of hours I would like at my job due to all of the work I have assigned to me at school. While I make little money, and the little that I do make goes to paying for school and bills, I think I will join.

Right now there is 3 articles I would like to read, but I can't say there is much more than that at the moment. This being the case, I am going to wait until another oen comes along that grabs my interest. When it does I will buy the membership.

Honestly I do not think the articles will prove to be super benifical and that is why this is not my main reason for planning on buying one. Instead, my decision rests on the fact that I do not mind contributing money to organizations that I find useful and resourceful. In fact, I get a sense of satisfaction knowing that I can help sponsor the site in some small shape and form.

In close, I would like to give a final two cents on something. The membership fee for $25 is very fair in my opinion. However, I would suggest keeping the renewal price at $15 (is that just for some people or is that for all people, I noticed reading that twice throughout this discussion.) The reason I say this is because when you first sign up, you gain access to member articles dating back a couple of years. So not only do you get to read current and upcoming articles, but you also get to review a whole archive of wealth. When you renew, all that you have to look forward to is what is coming out in future member articles, because you have already glanced over all of the old material that interested you. Also renewing shows that you are a loyal member to the site, why not throw in a little incentive to rejoin. Right?

Of course if you were like me, you would gladly pay that renewal fee should it be at a discounted price, and from there, you would then contact someone regarding where you could send an extra Paypal payment to the company when your pockets aren't so tight due to present expenses in life. In other words, pay the discounted renewal fee and then make a donation. That would be the route I would take.

Of course another thing BPL could do is charge $40 for the intial membership and $20 for the renewal. I mean why not charge more for all the massive amounts of information new members will have instant access to. Orrrrrr offer one year for $25, two years for $40, or three years for $50. I like that plan the most actual.

Alright, well this is not "lets make a deal", this is backpacking light, so I will leave it at that. Thanks for all the advice guys!

[Stephen Barber]

I'm a newbie to this site and UL backpacking (oldie to backpacking). When I heard of UL backpacking two weeks ago, and found this site, I scanned the article titles, etc, paid my $$$ and joined.

I have gotten my money's worth! Last week, for the first time since my back put me out of backpacking, I did an overnight with a 28 lb backpack (I know, not UL yet, but I'm getting there!). My back was fine. First time since the late 60s I've carried a pack less than 50 lbs. On Friday, a Mariposa Plus arrived, which will knock another 5 lbs off my carrying weight!

I am very happy with BPL, delighted beyond words to be back in the mountains, and think it all money well spent.

Thanks to all of you for giving me back the mountains!

[John S.]

repeating sticks and stones line to myself…

[Dean F.]

Trying not to laugh condescendingly at the doctor hate- especially when critics use words like "retarded." Ha! I mean- how old are you, Robert? When reading your other posts you don't come across as some juvenile d00d. :-) Plus, you mention having a problem for "decades."

Tim,

Well, it looks like you've pretty much decided to join. I think it's the right choice. This is THE best hiking website that I have ever found, and I signed up immediately. If nothing else, the gear reviewers put all others to shame. As mentioned before several have PhDs or are engineers. And it shows.

Evan,

For what it's worth I have hacker-ish sympathies, so I follow you on the "information should be free" ethos. I'm not absolutist about it, though. Heck, I have a security clearance! And, the fact that you can post here and read many articles for free actually shows that the BPL gurus sort of agree with you. You are free to look up all the "d00dz this pack rockz ur world" (no punctuation or caps) reviews that you care to. I'm willing to pay for quality- i.e. this site- if someone has put some effort into it, as they have.

For the record, it is the ONLY website that I pay to access. For whatever that's worth.

For someone just getting into UL (which was me just a few years ago) I think BPL is INDISPENSABLE. If someone is serious about getting lighter I don't think they could make a better investment than a subscription. I just did it, after all. You do make a biting point, Evan: Yes, backpacking is about actually getting outside and backpacking, but educating yourself on ANY subject helps, and BPL is the best web-based backpacking education in existance, IMNSHO. Education is especially relevent in cutting-edge disciplines which, arguably, includes UL backpacking.

[John Carter]

Actually, I would recommend that people first purchase the BPL book, or even Ray Jardine's book or an equivalent, before getting a membership here. There is excellent advice and materials on this site, but it is presented in a disorganized, jumbled manner (like most all forum-based sites are). By reading something like Beyond Backpacking, while controversial at times, gives you the big picture, introduces you to certain lightweight philosophy, and most important, presents things in a clear, organized manner.

By having read a full book first, I am able to compare and contrast the gear, technique, and reviews that BPL produces. I am able to better understand the various comfort levels of various posters' gear choices. I think if I had come to BPL first, I wouldn't even know what articles to look for.

But of curse the problem with books is that they are outdated as soon as they are published. That's where BPL comes in so handy; it gives us the most up-to-date information.

Think of how most interest groups operate; you get your periodic journal for up-to-date info, but you are expected to have read whatever standard textbooks exist in that field. While it is true that you do not have to get a degree to understand how to backpack, if you want an ultralight system using the latest technologies and techniques, you do have to become better informed about the safety and risks presented by your gear choices and philosophy.

Personally, I'm really glad BPL is online and not in magazine form. Most magazines have succumbed to sound-byte bits of info, flashy images, and more ads due to higher operating costs. Online there is space for in-depth articles. Plus, there is no interaction from magazines. On BPL, most any article is commented on, questions can be asked, etc.

[A. B.]

I'm not absolutist about information being free. I was not using the hacker creed 'information wants to be free'. However, I do think 'intellectual property' has been taken to an extreme in this country.

[Diplomatic Mike]

I'm happy to contribute a few dollars towards this site. The combined knowledge is more than worth it.
For folk that post on here regularly to advise against membership, makes me wonder if a bit of trolling isn't going on?

[A. B.]

It's not trolling when the original poster asked why it would be worth it to sign up. I gave my opinion on why it wasn't worth it for me. Obviously I am in the minority being the sole person in opposition. This doesn't make me a troll.

[Steven Evans]

I cruised these pages for something like 6 months before joining. Haven't looked back since. Forums are really great and stacked with information.

You'll know when you are ready.

[Dean F.]

> But of curse [sic] the problem with books is that they are outdated as soon as they are published. That's where BPL comes in so handy; it gives us the most up-to-date information.

I agree- a decent baseline understanding is very helpful in getting the most out of this site. But honestly, by my standards there aren't many good books out there. I'll readily recommend the BPL book, "Lightweight Backpacking and Camping." Ryan's book is what opened my eyes. It is, as you mentioned, a bit dated (2005?). The general information isn't dated, mind you, just some of the specific gear it occasionally mentions. Some of it is no longer made, or the model has changed significantly, etc. You can then come here to research your 'perfect' tarp, if you like, once you have the essentials down. I had never found such a comprehensive discussion of the technical aspects of hiking: the mechanics of walking, a discussion of the modern 'miracle' waterproof-breathable fabrics, etc. So many hiking books are crammed with a lot of philosophy, but little substance. (Probably because so many hiking books are written by- pardon- "hippies.") I have no problem with philosophy, mind you, but I already know why I hike. I don't need someone else to explain their reasons to me.

This website, and hopefully some day the wiki, fills in with updates, current developments, etc. I really hope the wiki takes off more. Having an updated source for all the various trade names of those 'miracle' fabrics that tells you what they actually are would be nice, for instance. It is so hard to filter through the advertising B.S. sometimes, and it just gets tiring. And, it NEVER sways my purchasing decision- DATA does.

[Diplomatic Mike]

Sorry Evan.
Maybe trolling is too strong. I just find your attitude strange. You post on this forum, yet say it isn't worth a few dollars for membership. That confuses me, as you are basically saying i'm stupid.

[Sam Haraldson]

> "d00dz this pack rockz ur world"

I'm in agreement with Dean on this one. There are plenty of free articles released by the multitudes of bloggers out there. However these tend to be heavy on the subjectivity and light on the objectivity.

[Sam Haraldson]

Evan, although receiving a fair bit of flack for his contributions to this thread pointed out something to me that has gone unnoticed since we ended the Backpacking Light print publication last winter.

You'll notice the "Advertise with Us" link that he referred to has been removed from the Web site as it was a relic of advertising in our print magazine. We have absolutely no intention of advertising on backpackinglight.com other than the advertising related to our own Gear Shop and the promotion of new and upcoming editorial content.

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