Sore Back after NeoAir Use? v. stiffer self-inflating pad?

I just posted a message in a NeoAir thread that I retuned my NeoAir because of back pain. The horizontal baffles really push up on my low and mid back in a noticeably uncomfortable way that results in low-to-mid pain like my kidneys are infected by morning. I don't have this problem on my Big Agnes Insulated Air Core, so I'm not sure it's simply a matter of pad thickness.

Now, granted, I can also wake up with a sore back on the Big Agnes, but that's usually after 10 or more hours of sleep (yes, I can get that much sleep on an AirCore!). The NeoAir would have me in pain after a few hours.

Before returning it, though, you might want to try adjusting the amount the NeoAir is inflated. Since you normally sleep on a firm mattress, try keeping the NeoAir fully inflated–it should get quite stiff. Then try to spend a night where the NeoAir is deflated such that your hips almost touch the ground. If neither work, time for a return!

BTW nice gearlist! We have many, many pieces of gear in common.

I have not noticed this, I actually wake up in a lot less pain then sleeping on my prolite. But I normaly sleep on a softer mattress. I have found that I have to deflate mine a little to get comfortable. Sorry to hear of your issues with it.

Dave, thanks. I don't know for myself if the NeoAir is the cause or not. I am going to try messing with the inflation factor and comparing it with a Montbell Pad. I only have about 2-3 more weekends to mess around before I leave for the JMT hike though. I need to determine the issue.

John, thanks for your input and compliment too!

I can't sleep on anything but an air mattress, or I have back pain. If I was you, I'd play with varying inflation levels, until you find one that doesn't hurt.

I thought of a cool idea (not original by any chance), I will start sleeping at night during the week on the two sleeping pads, alternating, figuring out which gives me a better sleep — I don't need to wait for backpacking to resolve this issue.

That is how I decided what inflation level fitted me best on the neoair. But remember that it will "lose air" when it is cold out. The first test outside, I had to blow it up more in the middle of the night.

I find I feel much better in the morning after sleeping on an air mattress such as the NeoAir vs. a thin self inflating pad.

Then again, I'm a side/stomach sleeper who is used to sleeping in a waterbed.

I will agree that proper inflation level is key. I sleep much better when the mattress is slightly underfilled, well, maybe significantly underfilled.

Last night I slept on the NeoAir and sleeping bag with maximum inflation. I felt somewhat stiff and sore this morning. Tonight, I will try the Montbell 150 – 1" self-inflating 5' long pad. Will update tomorrow.

How did it go for the 2nd night? Are you still sleeping?!

Try letting some air out of the NeoAir. You'll have to experiment to find the magic spot between soft enough to be comfortable and so soft it lets your hip and/or shoulder hit the ground. This is true with all air pads. Sleeping on a fully inflated air pad is like sleeping on a brick, or the ground. The idea is to have a level spine when you sleep on your side (meaning your hip and shoulder have to sink down in). That's true for back sleepers, too, to support the normal curvature of the spine (which of course differs for everyone–being female with ample (!) hips, I need my hips to sink in a lot more). For me, being on a closed cell foam pad or a self-inflating pad (even the 2" thick Thermarest LE) is agony within a minute or two.

I'm not 100% enthusiastic about the NeoAir compared to my POE Insulmat Max Thermo (older version the Ether Thermo), but after a week, I've decided that the NeoAir is sufficiently comfortable to do the job.

One possibility that I immediately see is that the narrowness of the pad is throwing your shoulders / arms at an angle that increases stress on some muscles in your back.

The arm support issue for back sleepers is a potential problem with any 2.5" thick pad that is 20" wide. My POE pad has about 1.5" less useable width than the NeoAir. That's because the outside part of the outer tubes slopes down steeply towards the outside. One advantage I found comparing the two pads is that the NeoAir has slightly more useable width, allowing me to curl up more. I rarely sleep on my back. When I do, my sleeping bag keeps my arms at my sides. For back sleepers who use quilts, I suspect this would be a big problem, whether your pad is NeoAir, POE or BA.

My second night I changed halfway thru the night to the Montbell 150 from a maximally inflated NeoAir. I should try a partially inflated NeoAir next.

The one thing I hate about the NeoAir is that the pillow does not stay afixed in position like it does, via the toggle-attach-system, of the Montbell 150. Why Thermarest does not adopt the toggle-attach-system that Montbell has to me is stupid, yes, I know it would be recognizing that a competitor has a good idea, but so what. Maybe there is a patent issue involved or not.

I have tried to jury rigg without sewing the toggle attachment system onto the NeoAir without success. Gluing anything onto the Neoair is like taping Teflon, it does not hold.

I definitely get a better sleep with the Montbell 150 (with the Montbell Pillow toggle-attached). Yes, I know my weight penalty is 3-4 oz, it might be something I end up suffering. I have to make up my mind by July 16.

I've never tried the Montbell system (since a self-inflating pad is too thin for me), and I use my outerwear as a pillow. I agree, though, it would be wonderful to have a way to attach the pillow to the pad! This is one place where the sticky surface of the NeoAir helps a little, but it would be nice to have something better. Without a weight penalty, of course!

Do try the NeoAir partially deflated and see if it helps (you'll have to experiment quite a bit with the amount of inflation). But I very much agree that a good night's sleep is far more important than weight!

I currently use a Montbell UL 90 (35" x 20" x 1", 10.2 oz) with Montbell pillow (2.4 oz). After lying on a NeoAir at REI I decided to stick with my self inflator but wouldn't mind a bit more thickness. I would like to try a Montbell UL 90 Camp. This pad, which doesn't exist, would be 35" x 20" x 1.5" and weight 11.8 ounces (see calculations below), which sounds pretty good for a pad that thick.

UL 180: 71" x 20" x 1", 19.6 oz
UL 180 Camp: 71" x 20" x 1.5", 22.9 oz
UL 90 Camp: 10.2 oz + [(22.9 oz -19.6 oz) x (35"/71")] = 11.8 oz

Anyone else want a 1.5" thick self inflator for less than 12 oz?

I personally find it way better when the pillow can move around as I toss and turn quite a bit when I sleep… Also if my pillow was attached to my pad via toggles my head would be at about the same level as my body, ruining the whole purpose of a pillow unless I used a pad that was pretty thin or a super thick pillow (I use the dual compartment inflatable one…can't remember exact name, sorry)

Derek,

The Montbell pillow can be attached to the Montbell pad so that it is either on or off of the pad.

Derek, the Montbell pillow is really a cool pillow, one that is to me so comfortable to my face, I don't need a cover for it. It is 2.4 oz and per the web page is 3.9" tall (seems taller to me from memory but I have not measured it). I do know it is plenty high for me when it is appended (via the toggle switches) to the montbell 1" pad, making a 5' pad about 5'10.6" long sleeping setup (longer than the 5.5" NeoAir Medium pad I have). With the NeoAir, it is only comfortable if laying on top of the NeoAir, making a toggle arrangement difficult to work, except as a flip-back arrangement.

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=33&p_id=1124290

The pillow is spacious: Size: 10.6" x 18.5" x 3.9" for only 2.4 oz.

At this point in time, I am inclined to take back the NeoAir. I was able to affix the pillow to the NeoAir with bungie cord (all cord, no metal ends) but the weight equaled the offset difference between the NeoAir and the Montbell.

Like I said, I like sleeping on a firm mattress and the Montbell seems to mimic my bed better than the NeoAir.

The whole idea of the pillow being affixed to the bed seems foreign to many, but think of it this way, on your bed at home, nobody likes their pillow falling on the floor. The toggle system keeps that same paradigm on the trail. With the NeoAir, one feels like their pillow has fallen on the floor all the time.

I just put my Montbell pillow into the hood of my sleeping bag – that keeps it in place.

Barb, putting the pillow inside the sleeping bag works for me too when it is so cold, I am "mummied" up, but when it is very warm, the pillow flips out. Problem with the High Sierra hikes is the variance from being warm to cold and sometimes you're "mummied" up and sometimes you're not.

However, with the Montbell pad, i have the sleeping bag down between me and the pillow and it makes the pillow feel more "soft" because of the lawyer of down insulation between me and the pillow. I like that feeling and if I could get the Montbell Pillow to affix to the NeoAir…but aside from the pillow issue, I just seem to like the Montbell's pad feeling, it feels more like a firm mattress than a "air bed" feeling.

I know this is an individual preference thing. I'm curious how many NeoAir lovers use ultra-firm mattresses for their normal sleeping bed at home.

I've also been using the Mont Bell system for a while and just love it! 2 comments on it to add to that part of this increasingly hijacked thread. 1) I too love the pillow…not just the attachment but the contoured design. One thing I've found myself doing when I go to my side, is to flip the pillow up 90 degrees and rest my head on the "edge". It makes up the height difference of my shoulder when on my side….and 2) The sit pad. I also have the closed cell sit pad that attaches to the bottom. This allows me to take the next size or two shorter sleeping pad…reducing weight….and have a "free" sit pad for camp (mainly for use on my Bearikade Expedition).

As to the NeoAir….I have tried it a couple times, but never did an entire evening. Being that high off the ground, my legs and arms "fall off" the side and I found it fairly distracting. Will probably try again once they release the "large" size.

Rand :-)

To help with the pillow staying in place on my Neo air, I take the GG sit pad from my Mariposa and put in down on the mattress and then put my stuff sack pillow on top of that. The mattress and the sit pad are pretty nonskid, so this keeps my pillow in place.

I decided to continue with the Montbell 150 which weighs 16.9 oz (5' long) and with Montbell's 2.4 oz pillow, it makes the whole bed, 5'8" long due to the reliable, fantastic toggle-connect system they utilize.

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=33&p_id=1124273

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=33&p_id=1124290

I returned my NeoAir to REI today and got a full refund — I returned it in original packaging. I told them the truth, full reasons, etc. They still gave me a full refund, their return policy is so great.

So far this year, I've stayed with the same backpack (Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone), same tent (Squall Classic by Gossamer Gear), same sleeping bag (Western Mountaineering Summerlite), and same sleeping pad (Montbell 150).

Hi Roleigh – Do you know what the R rating is on the Montbell 150? Have you always been warm with it? I know you've used it in the Sierra before.