Winter layers help

Hi Ben, I remember there being an exhaustive thread on softshells, try searching for it. Some people hate them and some love them.

I guess I should ask what kind of conditions you are talking about….my winter and your winter may be very different. Maybe you can get away with a windshirt and windpants and maybe you need a Himalayan suit! ;)

That said:
I use my softshell all winter, ALL day long, but we have a very cold and somewhat dry winter environment so it will excel in that.

I wear funny looking tights (kind of a softshell material) in the winter to reduce the bellowing effect of baggy pants, but I do wear knee high gaiters…assuming there is snow of course.

And, fleece while hiking (under my softshell), and down jacket while sitting around (over top of everything I am wearing).

Depending on where you are, Winter can mean vastly different things. I live and hike in the southeast, mostly in East Tennessee, West North Carolina, Southwest Virginia, and North Georgia, so my winter extreme is say 0*, so take that into consideration when you read my advice. I also tend to be cold natured.

I have found that while hiking, I am fine down into the 20's with just a mid weight wool baselayer, supplex nylon pants, smartwool adrenaline socks, and trail runners. I wear a 100wt fleece hat (taking it off to regulate temp), MH power stretch gloves, and a windshirt when needed.

In camp, I change into LW Capaline tops and bottoms, Patagonia R1 top and bottom (I take them, because if I can hike in them if need be), and MontBell Thermawrap Pants and Jacket(I want to replace them with the down versions), and put my raingear on top of that. I also have a Mont-Bell Alpine Down Jacket, but it rarely gets cold enough here. I wish I had bought the Alpine Light Parka instead. At camp, I wear a heavier windproof fleece hat or balaclava, and wear a dry set of power stretch gloves and fleece mittens on top of them.

I have used the Mont-Bell Thermawrap Jacket for four years, and take it on most of my trips. While the synthetic insulation might not be quite what it was when I bought it, the shell material looks brand new. My point is, that stuff is much more durable that it looks/feels.

I don't see a lot of snow, but I haven't found a use for a soft shell. (I can see there usefulness in snow)

I prefer down sleeping bags. Insulating garments are a toss up, but down is lighter and warmer, just dont get it wet.

I didn't do this graph, Richard Nisley did, who is the forum authority on garment warmth ratings, measured in clo, but I thought you might find it usefull. It shows the relative comparative warmth between some garments:

Good point. I'm in Virginia so I'm going to be normally looking at temps between 40 and 20 (probably in the lower range while in the mountains) with little snow. That said I'd like to be flexible to be able to do some camping in colder weather. Thanks.

>1. Do you use soft shell jackets and in what circumstances?

Not for backpacking. I bring a windshell for non-snow conditions (Pat. Houdini 3.75oz) and a hard shell with pit zip for snow. The snow in the Sierra is wet and will overwhelm my Pat. Ready Mix eventually, so I'll be bringing a hardshell jacket anyways.

2. Is there benefit of softshell pants even if snow will not be s strong factor?

I'm not sure about this. One advantage of soft shell is that they're more windproof that my nylon Ex Officio hiking pants, and they're fine for kneeling in snow when setting up my tent, etc, but for actively snowy conditions, I'll still have a hard shell. For no snow, I'd be wearing shorts + a UL pair of wind pants if it got cold. I was at Mt Shasta last weekend. I wore nylon shorts and brought my Marmot precip pants because their was a chance of snow/rain. I wore the shorts in mid-40s weather, 100% snow coverage, and didn't put on the precips until I was walking into a 50+mph wind, and even then I rolled them up to my knees to keep from overheating. In the evening, when the temps dropped into the 30s, I wore the precips over my shorts + silk base layer and was fine. Soft Shell pants would've been heavier/redundant.

3. Fleece or Down? The thinness of the Montbell jackets kind of freaks me out it seems a fleece layer would be more durable.

When you say thinness, I'm assuming you mean the shell? What you have to ask yourself as far as durability is, when will you be wearing your insulation layers? Unless you have the metabolism of a sloth, (or you really like sweating, I doubt you'll be wearing them while hiking. You'll be wearing them around camp or at rest stops. So where's the durability concern? The 15D, 30D nylon shell is only a concern if you're going to be snagging on tree branches. Under a hard shell, or just around camp, durability will be just fine.

But Fleece is much cheaper, if that is a concern.

I prefer the Mark Twight method (as described in "Extreme Alpinism").

When moving I wear a lighweight baselayer with a waterproof breathable shell. If it's very, very cold I will add a light fleece between the baselayer and shell.

Then I have a big synthetic jacket that I throw on for rest stops, or belaying on ice climbs, as well as in camp.

Most of my winter experience is in the White's of NH which is why I went with synthetic for the jacket. Down might be better for drier climates or of you don't ice climb. (Sometimes encounter running water and spray when ice climbing.)

It is when you are standing around in camp or at a rest stop or summit that you will want the top insulated layer. (For example, someone gets injured and you j
have to stand around for a few hours). You can find a nice down jacket without breaking the bank. They are light and pack small, too.

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/outerwear/jackets/insulated/down/

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/golite/el-diablo-jacket/

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/golite/six-month-night-parka/

I've really only been looking at ultralight down jackets. What is the main purpose of full sized down coat as opposed to something like a Montbell Inner? Money isn't a huge concern as I have can get Marmot and Arcteryx for dirt cheap (prodeal!) and the montbell is relatively inexpensive.

For my use, something like a montbell down inner is a 3 season piece that replaces a medium fleece for camp insulation. It's lighter, packs smallers, and provides about the same warmth as a 3 season fleece.

For winter, I need a full size insulating piece because temps can get well below zero.

YMMV, but (around camp i.e. low activity) I've found I can use a down inner parka combined with a silk base layer with a hard shell down into the upper 30s comfortably. Low 30s, it's a MB Alpine Light, and into the twenties and teens, it's, MB Down inner + Alpine Light, plus good base layer like Patagonia R1 hoody.

I have found the shell material on the MontBell UL range to be very durable. I take the UL innerdown jacket for 3-season use (which here can be almost any temps, but assumes there's no snow on the ground at the start of the hike, and none is expected). If I know for sure I'll be camping or hanging out in snow, I'll take a Nunatak Skaha hoody plus. I wear a base layer with a windshell or hardshell most of the time, but have a microfleece layer to throw on just in case. I also take the Montbell UL inner pants for sleeping in/hanging out in camp when I know it will be cold (below about -10 C or 15F), but that's because it's also part of my sleep system (my sleeping bag by itself struggles to keep me warm at -10 C).

I don't take a softshell, so can't comment except to say that I don't take the softshell due to the unpredictable weather. I may expect it to be cold (and thus dry), but no telling when I might end up in a biblical deluge instead. YMMV. I DO use a softshell for snowboarding, and find it excellent in those conditions.