Cuben / Down Quilt

[John Brochu]

Length worked out perfect.

[Juston Taul]

Sign me up. I want one. PM sent prior to reading all 8 pages. Sorry Tim.

[Juston Taul]

Thanks for the quick response Tim. Yeah I jumped the gun on that PM. After reading the entire thread last night I finally came across your old website and was redirected to the new one. Looks great. Some quick questions for you.

I'm 76.5" tall. I weigh 190lbs and have an average build. I wear size 11US shoes. What dimensions would you suggest?

Should I go with with the eVent center seam? Has anyone tried this… if so how much slower did it loft?

What size baffles would you suggest? I saw that you originally planned on 5" but went with 6" because of the material you had on hand.

Loft… i'll be using this with a bivy/tarp 99% of the time. With a tent the other 1%. It would be nice to use this is a blanket during warmer weather but be able to go down into lower temps of about 15F. 2" of loft enough with a proper ground mat, base layers, and a bivy? Or should I bump it up to 2.5?

Also, just an idea to throw your way… ever think about using the STEALTH color Cuben that MLD does? That would look sick.

[Unknown abc]

Before I were to ever buy a $500 cuben/down quilt I'd wanna see at least 10 positive reviews on how well they do with not overheating and soaking the user with moisture/sweat/vapor during the middle of the night.

[Steven Evans]

I get e-mails about my quilt all the time. Lots of people with the same hesitation as Evan. They don't understand that cuben fiber was used first and foremost because it was non-breathable and second that it was the lightest form of non-breathable material. Example: If there was a lighter material that was breathable, I wouldn't want it because then I would have to bring a seperate vapor barrier.

I usually tell people the same thing:

The Epiphany Quilt (formerly WLQ) is a tool. You must use this tool as it is designed or you will have negative results. If you have not used or do not have an understanding of the vapor barrier concept, then simply do not buy the quilt. The cuben fiber was used purposely to trap moisture, therefore, it is not a downfall of the quilt! It is in fact a benefit…that is the whole point of the non breathable material – to create an integrated vapor barrier.

I'm not trying to be harsh, just that everyone thinks that trapping moisture is a negative effect of the quilt…but that was the whole point of the quilt.

[Unknown abc]

problem is, I sweat alot when I overheat.

I'm just saying a Cuben quilt probably isn't for anyone that sweats alot because they'd be soaked. And it certainly needs to be used with catioun and skill in winter.

[Steven Evans]

You're right, it's probably not a good buy for you. If I were you, I'd experiment with a VBL first and if it worked, then you could jump to the quilt. You may have to vent too frequently and that can cause sleep/rest issues. Sorry if that came across wrong, but I just answered a few e-mails of people asking me why I would want a non-breathable material in the quilt…and some even recommend that the next quilt should use a nylon or momentum shell, and I'm like "I don't want it to breath!"

[John Brochu]

Steven,

Would you say then that the bottom temp range of the quilt is whatever the low temp is you're comfortable at without any additional clothing other than a light base layer?

Actually, I'm only assuming you're sleeping in a light base layer. Is that what you're doing when you use the quilt?

My intention is to sleep in lightweight capiline and occasinally vent throughout the night. I think it's going to work out fine, but I won't know for sure how I'll like it until I get some practice with it and modify my system.

[Steven Evans]

"Would you say then that the bottom temp range of the quilt is whatever the low temp is you're comfortable at without any additional clothing other than a light base layer?"

Yes, you're right on. I don't layer under the quilt and I'm not sure it would be a good idea. Like you mentioned, I just wear a light baselayer and vent as required.

[Tim Marshall]

Evan,

This quilt (and all vb) are designed to use when it is too cold for you to get uber sweaty. The less insulation the quilt has the warmer you can use it before reaching "the soak zone", the point at which you are too hot and sweat like crazy. This isn't really a summer quilt.

Justin,

I would suggest 81-82" long with a foot of 38-40 (thats what i like for my 11.5ee). The width at the top and which taper you choose depend more on how you sleep. If you are a back sleep you can get by with a much narrower quilt, like Steve's but side sleepers need more width to keep drafts out as it is harder to keep the quilt trapped under them while on their sides.

I would think something like 47-50" would work with a straight taper, but if you are a solid side sleeper who tosses you may want wider, and/or half taper.

For baffles i am doing it based on the loft. More loft less baffles needed to give good control, less loft more baffles needed. Johns quilt with ~1.5" loft has 4" baffles. I do think that i will go with this as my baffle standard, 1.5"loft=4"spacing, 2"loft=5"spacing, 2.5"loft=6"spacing. I will most likely not space beyond 6" even as the loft increases, unless perhaps over 4" of loft (which would be as hot as the sun)

for 15* from purely down loft i'd suggest 2.5", however the VB will add to the warmth so 2" may be enough for you. It is hard to say as every person will sleep a little hotter or colder in the same setup.

Steve, how cold have you gone with yours? ~2" of loft right?

as far as layering goes it is not suggested to use puffy insulation under the quilt without additional VB clothing (under the puffy stuff), however a base layer or even a fleece layer will add to the warmth and perhaps even the comfort of the system as they help regulate the amount of moisture in direct contact with your skin. But expect them to be damp in the morning (depends on user venting and temperature).

-Tim

oh,
I have made 1 quilt with the OD .75oz cuben, it still needs down and i will take some pics when it is done. The reason i can't offer this color as a normal options is that colors must be ordered in 100M quantity, which for me ain't gonna happen any time soon. Also i am contemplating a change to .48 or .51 cuben for these quilts. I am not sure about it yet but it would greatly add to the durability at ~1oz weight penalty.

[Juston Taul]

Tim,

I am a side sleeper the majority of the time. Let's do this.

82" Length
50" Head
40" Foot

2" of Loft

Use EPIC material for the center strip. I'll take the 1oz hit for the stronger .48 or .51 cuben as well. I'd rather it be more durable.

As far as the taper, do whatever you think is best for a side sleeper. Straight or Half. I'm leaning more towards the half but I'll trust your judgement.

That's all I've got for now. If you have any comments or suggestions on changes I should go with please let me know. This is all guesswork for me. Shoot me a PM with the price and I'll get it to you right away. Thanks for your help.

Juston

[Tim Marshall]

for side sleepers i normally suggest 1/2 taper as it gives the most materials to be tucked and keep drafts out.

please e-mail me the specs you want at my tim at enlightenedequipment dot com account and i'll get you a quote

please include desired loft.

-tim

[Michael Crosby]

OK,
Up to now I have been quietly watching and drooling along with the rest of you. I just got a note from Tim that mine is done and will ship in the next days.
Made from the .75 "Breen" cuben
75" long
52" wide at top with a 1/2 taper to 40"
2.5" baffels with 3" loft
weights in the stuff sack 22.2 oz
(good to at least 0 as it replaces a 4# bag a savings of 41.3+ oz
I will try to see how low I can take it and report each lower attempt.

This makes the third bit of gear Tim has made that I have and I am very pleased.

THANKS AGAIN TIM!!!!

Mike

[Tim Marshall]

you are really gonna like this bag Mike.

Since the material is heavier i was able to use a bic pen to mark my lines instead of a sharpie (as the pen can damage the .33 material) so the lines that mark the baffles and cut marks are virtually invisible as i sewed over them. I will get pics up here and my site as this is the nicest looking one to date.

I am going to make one from the .51 material and see how that works, i am hoping it will be a happy medium between the .33 and .75.

-Tim

[John Brochu]

Tim, have you had reports of durability issues with the .33 or just guessing it might be an issue downstream?

[Tim Marshall]

i have seen it scuff (not a failure but a concern) just from the process of sewing it(some of these scuffs can be seen on yours on the sides of a few of the baffle lines). I haven't heard of any failures but if i increase the durability i think it may appeal to more people. I think there are some people who are worried about investing this kind of money and having it not last. That said i will make mine out of the .33 until i have a reason to believe that it is too fragile. As of now i just want to at least experiment with a slightly more durable fabric.

-Tim

[John Brochu]

Ok, thanks. I think it's going to last just fine because it's a quilt and shouldn't take much if any abuse for normal 3 season use. I will baby it. If there are problems downstream my guess is it will be at the seams but I'm only assuming the seams are the weak point.

If I end up getting a true winter quilt I would choose a heavier cuben for sure just because winter bags take a lot more abuse. You would still save weight over something like 0.8 quantum because you don't need to bring a vapor barrier liner. Maybe you could use heavier cuben on the outside and baffle with the lighter stuff?

For a quilt like the one you made me, going to something heavier doesn't make as much sense imo because then the 0.8 quantum starts to look desirable in comparison as the vapor barrier nature becomes an issue for the summer season. I believe the fact that the footbox can be unzipped and the quilt used as a blanket will mitigate that problem for the warmer seasons, but won't know for sure until I test it.

As far as the Sharpie lines being visible – it doesn't bother me a bit. I can see how it might bother you since you probably want all your gear looking polished but I like the rough look. Makes me feel like I have a one-of-a-kind product! Maybe just let future customers know ahead of time that the line marking is visible on the finished product.

BTW – the sleeping bag you made for my daughter is very nice too and looks awesome. I should have asked you to put the other drawstring a little further up the bag, but I didn't realize how much length is taken up by having a drawstring closure at the foot of the bag. But it's no big deal. My wife really likes it a lot too and we're both excited to get our little one out camping and canoeing this summer.

[Tim Marshall]

i keep trying new markers to make the lines so when i start i always think i have the solution, then i end up having to fall back and use the sharpie.

I am starting one today and will try the pen this time as the line is much easier to cover with stitches and much less noticeable when not covered.

It just seems with the cuben that a washable marker isn't dark enough to see when sewing the baffles and hemming the sides.

Good to hear the little bag is a hit.

I think after using the .51 on a bag (being ordered today or tomorrow) i will probably choose to stick with the .33, but i at least want to see the other stuff and decide if the weight bump is worth the extra durability(or if the extra durability isn't as much as i suspect).

-Tim

[Doug Johnson]

Hello all,

I love this quilt concept and I've played a bit with vapor barriers so I get the value there. But I'm wondering- won't a vapor barrier base layer be important as well?

Here's my thinking: I've used VBs a lot in winter. They are absolutely warmer AND they keep the insulation dry. When sleeping, I ofter wear semi-vb layers close to the skin- usually a thin base layer, followed by semi breathable layer (Golite Reed and a waterproof Montane cycling jacket) with warmer layers on top (Cocoon pants and jacket and sometimes a down vest) and then the bag. I use RBH socks. This combination is very warm and I wake up with my insulation much drier. I've always wanted to do full VB clothing to see the full benefits. Good explanation here: Warmlite VB artcle

Now, if you were using VB clothing, that would make a VB bag like this one a no brainer. No moisture, no issue. Rather than the typical method of transporting moisture across all layers and out the bag, it is all contained, keeping you warm and your insulation dry. This makes switching to the lightest Cuben fabric a perfect compliment.

That said, I've never really understood the thinking of a VB bag liner (or VB bag in this case). Typical ultralight thinking is to wear your insulation to bed. However this method would trap the moisture at the clothing level. Even if you don't sweat it out, the moisture will still accumulate in these layers. To me, that would mean that you'd have to leave the insulation clothing out of the bag which means you need more down in the bag to compensate for the clothing you aren't wearing, adding extra weight to the bag and your pack.

Now I suppose you could just use synthetic insulation and rely on the garments drying when wearing them by day, but this is a bit risky in winter.

However, a cuben bag with matching cuben VB clothing (especially on the feet and core I would think) would be a brilliant combo, at least based on my possibly shaky logic.

I'd love to hear others' opinions and experiences.

[Brad Groves]

Doug, I happily use a VBL liner. Not as concerned about wearing insulation to bed using it, b/c I already gain so much warmth just from the VBL (I use the HotSac, which also gives some reflective heat gain).

If I do get really cold, though, I'd normally drape my jacket over myself, just as you'd wear a quilt. It works fine b/c it's between the VBL and sleeping bag. This approach wouldn't work w/a cuben quilt, but I don't think it's an issue. The cuben things are so light that an "extra" couple ounces of down are probably an efficient way to construct a system. If all else fails, throw your insulation quilt-like over the outside of the bag, I'd think.

[Tim Marshall]

you could lay your jacket on top of the quilt.

I think Doug is right about VB clothes. I totally agree that you wouldn't want to wear your insulation in the quilt without the VB clothes.

I think that VB clothes have more a place than just for sleeping (didn't i read something about Sam H and Andy S winter hiking and Sam wishing he had VB base layers like Andy)

If people are doing deep winter travel i hope they are being smart with the gear they choose and not using any insulation system that they haven't tested and are comfortable in. This includes sleep systems but is also very important to clothing systems as well.

-Tim

[Doug Johnson]

Just got a ping from a friend:

"If wearing your VB beneath your insulation clothing layers whats the point of a VB quilt? The moisture is trapped closer to your skin never reaching the underside of the quilt. A regular quilt would perform as well or better I would think given the use of the worn VB."

Good point- the vb bag would be redundant and unnecessary if wearing vb clothing. The point here would be the weight: cuben is the lightest fabric around. I suppose the added vb would be extra insurance in humid tent environments- especially if the racing stripe were made of eVent. Moisture from the body or the environment would be a non issue.

[t.darrah]

DJ,
I would think the best use of the Cuben/Down Quilt is to sleep in minimal base layers only, say a Cap 1 or 2 type top and bottom. The quilt would then be required to have enough loft to provide the required warmth for the expected temps. This may negate some of the benefit of the light material. Yes insulation layers could be draped over the quilt but these may migrate off the user if a restless sleeper.

Wearing VB base layers under insulation clothing and used with a not as warm conventional quilt (non VB) may provide a more versatile system.

Having multiple options available to achieve a desired result is a good thing.

[Tim Marshall]

i think we are all agreed that VB clothes are the way to go under insulated clothing. However, there is no lighter quilt/bag or whatever option than a cuben on. For 3 season conditions the cuben quilt without vb clothes should be good to go. In the winter add the vb clothes to your winter weight cuben quilt for the lightest sleep system possible.

The cuben quilt will always be lighter as even if you need the vb clothes, your want those in any other bag too.

-Tim

[John Brochu]

Plus I'm going to try ditching my bivy since the cuben should repel any minor splashes that might make it under my tarp.

That saves another 7.25 oz.

[Author]

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