What’s the point of WPB fabrics?

The point is degrees of wetness.

First, it's important to remember that you're not (or shouldn't be) wearing a hardshell in hot weather… because it would be too hot and you'd sweat too much. So in theory you're only wearing a hard shell in cooler rain; that'll be different for different people, but for me it means rain in the 50s (*F) or cooler.

If you're in that 50*F weather and cranking along you'll still probably overheat. You will indeed sweat inside the hardshell and overwhelm it. You will get somewhat wet. However, the amount of sweat you produce will not be as much as the torrential downpours that would otherwise completely soak you without the shell.

Re: your last comment on wet-out, I can't tell if you understand it or not… The DWR and shell might wet out on either hard or soft shell, true. The hard shell will not, however, wet-through. It'll just quit breathing effectively.

"The hard shell will not, however, wet-through. It'll just quit breathing effectively."

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I understand this, but practically speaking, if it quits breathing effectively because of wet-out, and you get just as wet from condensation on a hardshell as you would from a wet-through softshell, then in practice it doesn't really matter, right?

Yes, wpb and softshell all need a good DWR to function properly. Since there are so many definitions of softshell, I'll assume we are talking about something like schoeller fabrics or similar thicker materials (as opposed to a system based on a windshirt). I guess the main question is what conditions and situations are we talking about?

I think softshells excell during single day, high intensity activities when you can roughly anticipate conditions (ideally cold, and most if any moisture in solid rather than liquid form), and when you will be wearing the shell most if not all the time. So, for example, I like my REI Mistral pants for a long, cold day of snowshoeing in deep powder when I know I will be working hard, but home to some pleasant beverage at day's end.

Over multiple day trips with changing and variable conditions, I like wpb fabrics. First, they are much lighter if you encounter conditions when you want to throw them in your pack rather than wear them. Second, they are much quicker to dry than softshell fabrics, and absorb much less water. Third, a system based on a wpb hardshell is more flexible because the separate functions of insulation and wind/rain protection are not bundled into one layer. Easier to wear a damp fleece layer to bed and dry it out overnight than wear a damp softshell overnight. So, on multiple day trips, I find a system with a wpb shell to be more adaptable to changing conditions, easier to keep dry, and lighter.

James

EDIT: Also, a hardshell will be more comfortable in extreme precipitation than a softshell, and so is suited to a wider range of conditions, even if the softshell does better than the hardshell in SOME conditions. Important to note that with a hardshell, you ONLY wear it when you need it- you can wear your insulating layers without any shell whatsoever. With a softshell, insulation and wind/precipitation are combined in one garment. Multiple-day trips are really when these issues of weight, flexibility, and water absorbency come to the fore.

Good points James.

I just wonder why not have the equivalent of a hardshell but without the WPB layer. Why is it even there? Why not just a 20D nylon shell with a DWR coating?
Then insulation, weight, and breathability aren't really concerns anymore. It won't be "as waterproof," but the WPB relies on perfect DWR to keep us dry anyway.

Just read again what Brad wrote:

The point is degrees of wetness.
You will indeed sweat inside the hardshell and overwhelm it. You will get somewhat wet. However, the amount of sweat you produce will not be as much as the torrential downpours that would otherwise completely soak you without the shell.

That 20D just won't be enough and while your WPB shell will feel clammy, it's still better than getting completely soaked and cold.

Last week, during a walk my wife and I were making, it started to rain. First just a drizzle and I decided just to wear my windshell. It has often shown to be more than enough. But after half an hour when the rain started to intensify and my windshell got completely soaked I switched to my paclite because although clammy inside, certainly with a wet windshell underneath, I still felt more comfortable than with just the windshell.

Even in rain, I often decide just to use my windshell and keep my rain jacket in my pack because I feel that the combination of keeping on moving on and the bit of protection of my windshell is enough to keep me comfortable. However, there's always a point at which those two are not enough anymore to offset the discomfort from increasing and/or continuing rain. That's the point when my rain jacket will earn itself.

So I always carry both a windshell and a rain jacket because neither of the two is good enough to replace the other one. Yes, I means carrying several hunderd grams more in my pack but my goal is not to get the lightest pack but to have the most comfortable and efficient set up that will help me through a range of ever changing circumstances.

Bradley,

Yep, just plain nylon is used all the time! Roger Caffin makes some great MYOG garments he used on his trip in Europe.

It is important to distinguish DWR from fabric material. Schoeller, eVent, goretex, nylon, etc. and even windshirts can have DWR. I'm pretty sure cheerios could have a DWR, though this might negatively effect flavor. A fabric can be very breathable and have a DWR treatment. I'm no chemist, but basically DWR helps shed water as opposed to absorb it.

What distinguishes schoeller, eVent, or a windshirt, therefore, is not DWR but what it is applied to. Compared to an eVent or goretex hardshell, a windshirt is much lighter and much more breathable. However, as Tom notes, it will not stand up to precipitation like those hardshells. Windshirts are at best water resistant, but provide protection from wind and some warmth for very low weight.

The question is: what do you want to accomplish? Stay warm? Stay dry? Both? An insulating layer/windshirt/hardshell combo provides lighter, more maintainable, and more flexible solutions to these questions than softshell garments. And don't even get started on where things like ponchos and parkas figure in!

If it is really raining, you will get wet. Period. From either inside, outside, or both. The trick is to stay warm and relatively dry (as opposed to just standing in rain bare *ss): wet ok, cold definitely not ok and in fact dangerous. So, if it is cool but not cold, I may throw on a hardshell top in hard rain but stay in my shorts- legs get wet, but they also moderate my core temperature, and with a merino base layer I stay non-hypothermic. If legs and me start to get cold, then rain or wind pants come on. My legs may still be damp due to perspiration, but at least they stay warm. Best of all, at the end of the day, I can dry out the stuff I need to dry (as opposed to being laden with sopping heavy softshell gear).

There are lots of threads here about the use of hardshells versus windshirts. Do check them out. Many variables to consider: expense, sacrificability, durability, weight, other articles of clothing in your system, prevailing conditions, etc. My current personal preference is that, most of the time, I prefer an extra fleece layer as opposed to a windshirt. Yes, it is heavier, but even windshirts make me feel clammy.

Hope this helps,

James

I am starting to become a believer in umbrellas being added to the mix. Using an umbrella and wind shirt can be a perfect combination for many rainy conditions. The umbrella will shed most of the rain and the wind shirt will get a little wet but not overwhelmed and dry out relatively quickly. The added bonus is that you get to keep good ventilation so as to not soak the under layers with perspiration.

This combination breaks down in strong winds, which is when you might want to wear the hard shell.

Totally agree with previosu poster.

unless there is a strong and shifting wind, an umbrella and windsirt is veryvery confortable.

In one of my 100KM in a day walk, it rained for the 11 first hours. Everyone was pretty misreable from either the rain and thesweat/condensation, except the umbrella users

I find ProPore doesn't easily wet-out, and it doesn't have a DWR. DriDucks plus umbrella is my favourite combo for calm on-trail wet days. Unfortunately both DriDucks and umbrella fail miserably when you leave the trail or hit high winds.

You are right in many ways, but …

First of all, we have yet to develop a really good DWR. They all fail far too soon for my liking. They are never in a 'perfect shape'. This is A Pity!

Second, what you have said is close to reality, but you have not mentioned wearing a pack. The pressure under the pack straps, down the back and around the waist belt is usually enough to cause most DWR finishes to fail.

Now if you wearing something like a jacket made from a heavy Schoeller fabric or a Paramo fabric then the rest of the jacket may look after most of the water. But if you are talking about a very light shell over a very light shirt, then you are going to have a problem wetting out.

You mentioned that a hard shell jacket will wet out at some point. This is for most practical purposes false. A good hard shell won't let water through. You might get sweat on the inside though. (There are not-so-good 'hard shells' of course!)

Cheers