This post is an archive of posts in the G-Spot forum that initiated this thread about backpacking in Europe
Posted by inaki diaz de etura (inaki – M)
On 01/26/2006 06:51:50 MST
I think the key difference between America and Europe is that western Eu has no real wilderness. As far as sleeping out goes, this means you have to do it high in the mountains or else you’ll be hearing the vehicles in the next road or the tv set from the last house in the upper section of the next village. When hiking in North America, I’ve always felt it was no problem to find a sheltered spot down in the valley of whatever route for that bad weather spell. In Europe I usually find myself having to camp in exposed locations if I want to be any far from civilization.
I also think (limited experience still talking here) it takes time and an adaptation process to get used to face harsh weather in a tarp. I’m still at it. I think your mind needs you go through it to actually believe it no matter how much you read about it and Europe makes this process so much difficult as there’s usually a way out. When the weather gets ugly and you have the option to sleep in a hut or even get to a village without even compromising your trip it’s difficult to say no. You need to be highly motivated. In a real wilderness, many hours or even days away from civilization you have no other option so you see it as a natural thing to do. It’s entirely psychological but it makes a difference in that learning process, or that’s what I think at least.
Posted by Anatoly IVANOV
On 01/26/2006 09:48:31 MST
Inaki is absolutely right about backpacking in Europe. The infrastructure here is so dense my main problem is to find a place to sleep that is not on someone’s private lawn. Sometimes you can’t, so you ask: “Excuse me, can I sleep on your lawn?”
Even high in the Alps, you can’t walk more than 5km before seeing a restaurant and a hut. With a handy jeep taxi for tired hikers. Argh…
Even with a Vapor Trail / Virga sized pack, people look at me like at a crazy man. Most take an apple, a bottle of water and a fleece in an Eastpak. Sleeping out is considered extreme!
The solution is to know hidden valleys and trails as high as possible and as far as possible from civilization. And even then, I prefer my bivy to hide away.
ANATOLY IVANOV PHOTOGRAPHY / DESIGN
Posted by inaki diaz de etura (inaki – M)
On 01/26/2006 11:05:40 MST
I can relate to what you feel about that certain difficulty to apply others’ experiences when those are from a different environment. It’s a pity UL is not so much talked about in Europe but it’s clear why: people don’t actually need to be self dependent in the mountains. UL actually means going without (and using the infraestructures). Why bother with a tent and stove when you can spend the night under a roof and a stuffed table… most people don’t see why. Most people focus on climbing peaks or highly technical stuff, not many care for the simple joy of spending the night on your own in a beautiful spot. It’s just the way things are in Europe.
Still, there are people who enjoy the closer relation to nature the self-dependance brings. And from there to UL thinking is just a matter of time (and finding the right resources). In France, you may know these people: http://www.randonner-leger.org. Not at BPL level but they talk UL language for sure.
Posted by Frank Ramos (frprovis – M)
On 01/26/2006 12:45:58 MST
I do most of my hiking in Europe and have for some years now, even though I live in the United States. The reason is that I really like the idea of camping wild but eating at nice restaurants and being able to buy gourmet grocery food every few days, and that just isn’t possible on the American long-distance trails. A tarp is perfectly possible in the Alps, even in windy conditions, provided you pitch it close to the ground. Ray Jardine speaks of using tarps on the exposed continental divide in the United States during gale conditions, which is about as severe a test as can be imagined. I should note there that the Colorado Rockies have Alpine type weather, with ferocious thunderstorms and snow possible at any time of year, whereas the Sierras, which is what many people think of as typical American mountains, have exceptionally mild weather during the summer.
The problem with tents in the Alps and Pyrenees is that you usually need a sizeable spot of flat ground in order to pitch them properly, and often there just aren’t that many such places. So everyone ends up crowded together in the same place. With a tarp or bivy, you just need a tiny piece of ground big enough for a single person to lie on and the rest of the ground underneath the tarp can be very uneven. This allows you to camp away from the crowds. Not that I’m completely unsociable, but I do like a bit of privacy at night.
Small tarps with a catenary cut pitched close to the ground will reduce wind-flapping significantly. There’s an article here on BLT about this issue. I used the Cat 2 tarp from owareusa.com last year together with a homemade bivy, and this year I’ll be using the Cat 1.5 to cut wind profile still further. One thing I strongly recommend is to use silicone seam sealer to strongly reinforce the seams and tieouts of any tarp made of silnylon. For example, with the oware cat tarps, remove some of the stitching that holds the tieout fabric reinforcements in place, then smear seam sealer between the two pieces of fabric, then press them together, then redo the stitching after the sealer has dried. This adds a little weight, but it really gives you a lot more confidence about using the tarp in strong wind conditions. Also, be sure to pitch the tarp low when the wind is strong. Be sure to use titanium stakes since alpine ground is notoriously difficult for pounding stakes into the ground. And bring some spares. I once bent one of the heavy, 15 gram supposedly unbendable titanium stakes during a fit of frustration. Also, put heavy rocks on top of the stakes to keep them from blowing away.
The big reason I bring a tarp rather than just a bivy is that I don’t always camp in the mountains. Often the trails meander between villages and mountains and I stay in campgrounds in the villages. Sleeping in just a bivy sack in a campground is likely to make you feel very silly. I added some doors to my cat tarp to give some added privacy in campgrounds.
The other reason I bring a tarp rather than just a bivy is that I only spend a portion of my time in the mountains. The rest of the time is spent hiking around the lowlands, alternating between hotels, campgrounds and wild camping. Even thought it is true that Europe is heavily developed, there are still plentiful places for wild camping, in my experience. Europe is similar to Pennsylvania or other Northeast states in this respect. What’s more, there is a long tradition in Europe of alternating villages, cultivated fields, pastures and small wooded areas. These wooded areas were used as the local wood supply for the neighboring villages. Technically it is illegal to camp in these wooded areas, but no one objects to a solo backpacker bivouacing in them, as long as you don’t make a fire and otherwise follow leave-no-trace principles. The pastures are another possibility, though not so stealthy (but watch out for bulls!). Still, it is unlikely that anyone will object to a solo backpacker bivouacing in pastures. A bivy could also be used in these wooded areas and pastures, but has the usual disadvantages of bivys in such circumstances (claustrophia, condensation) without any real advantages.
In the past I used a modified OR bivy, but now I just using a bug-bivy and rely on my tarp to keep the rain out. I also use all synthetic gear just in case everything goes wrong and I get soaked. A typical example of things going wrong is having a massive rain storm that leaves several inches of water where I am camped, even though the ground is sloped and will drain in an hour or so, and then discovering that my bivy floor has a hole that is letting in huge amounts of water, and then having the temperature drop down below freezing. With synethetic gear, I’ll merely be very cold and have to spend some time the next day drying things out. With down, a situation like this could be much more serious.
Posted by Craig Shelley (craig_shelley – M)
On 01/26/2006 16:27:29 MST
Hello Frank,
Your backpacking in Europe is very interesting to me. Are there any resources (books, web sites, etc.) that you could suggest for others interested in do this? Most of the obvious stuff on backpacking in Europe is the typical travel by train, hostel, keeping costs low. I like the idea of true hiking/backpacking mixed with visiting small villages every few days. Could you suggest some of the places you have gone?
Craig Shelley

