Father/son getting started

Yep, surely we'll have it down pretty well in 3 years. I just hope he finds it enjoyable so we'll still be doing it then! Even though he seems to enjoy car camping when we've done it, he's not the outdoorsy type person I was and would still like to be.

That makes me wonder what y'all have done to make it more interesting for the youth. I have no idea about places where you can do some backpacking that you could also incorporate frisbee golf, ziplines, ???, etc. Do some of you take fishing gear while backpacking?

Even though I've said it earlier, I guess I should add that is why we'll start slow, not hike very far, not go when it's raining (though perhaps he'd like that), etc. I want to make sure he has a good experience (and I need to learn more, too!). I'm just looking for other ideas that might entice him to keep with it.

It's worth the weight of the guides needed to get the young folks interested in plants, animals, geology and rocks. Just don't let them start a rock collection while backpacking!

A year ago, my then second-grade grandson had a school science unit on insects. During our summer trips both he and his younger sister were most interested in bugs of all sorts. They were far more interested in stopping to observe insects than they were in the larger wildlife! Don't be so focused on the distance goal (gotta get there in three hours) that you don't stop to take in what's close at hand along the trail. Point out crooked trees and let your boy speculate as to what made them that way (good exercise in creativity)

You can make games out of learning skills–even staying dry in the rain. A favorite for my grandkids in camp was a knot-tying game, consisting of small-size cards, two plastic sticks and two lightweight pieces of cord. Make games of "leave no trace" skills rather than only enforcing them as rules. I turned "policing" the campsite before we leave into a game, and they love it (they found lots of junk left from prior campers that I had missed). Making a game of picking up trash left along the trail by others is another good exercise.

Frisbees, fishing, flying kites (if there are large open meadows or a mountaintop available)–all are good and relatively lightweight.

Your boy is old enough to get interested in photography, too. Start with a simple, easy to use camera.

Once you've had a few "shakedown cruises" and your son has developed a few skills, consider bringing one of his friends. It really helps when two kids can compete. However, I wouldn't do this for the first few trips.

Mike, I'll just throw my .02 cents in, but this is a little late. I bought some alps mountaineering through their scout direct program. Great deal on some good equipment (in my case a tent). However, their stuff is heavy. I posted as question on alps here the other day and the same answer was given, its heavy. Stick to the alps for car camping, go elsewhere for backpacking.

thats all the advice I can give right now. I'm in the same boat you are in that I'm trying to collect gear. Its hard to do because of the expense and the amount of use it will actually get. My boy is just a tiger cub at right now.

actually, right now I'm looking into how to just build my own tent.

Rob,
I think I did share that I went with a Lunar Duo. It's now here so I'll get it sealed and tested out next week hopefully. I did get an AM compression sack to take advantage of the recent free shipping offer from REI. That will help squish one of our huge sleeping bags until I can get around to replacing them.

I think for now all he'll carry is his bag, water and food. He may even be able to fit that into one of his school backpacks so we won't even need to rent one yet. Surely that won't weigh any more than all the books he's had to bring home before. Granted, he didn't have to walk the mile home with that either. This first trip will be 2.5 miles one way over at least some hilly terrain.

It turns out my wife had some ancient backpack I'll use for now. It's quite light actually, but I'm sure it would make y'all wince.

Actually, some of those older backpacks are lighter than they look, and if you are carrying some of your son's gear and most of the food & water, a framed pack may be a better bet than a frameless one. Even if it is heavier it will likely be more comfortable with the heavier load.

Plus it's paid for, so that's good.

I'm taking a framed pack on this summer's trip with my youngest son.

michel

sorry, I got a late start on this thread and I have to admit after the first couple of posts I started skimming more than reading. Like I said, I like the alps gear, thought it was really good, had great reviews, and the scout direct makes for some really good prices. But after visiting this site and doing some comparision, alps is to heavy for backpacking.

I tried a book backpack on my son, 7 (70 lbs) but it was an adult pack and to large for him. Just sagged and hung to low. I didn't think the fit was very good. I ended up putting him in a smaller adult hiking backpack which was still to big, but with the waist strap and better strap adjustments, it did get a bit better, snugger fit on him.

We did a mile with him toting his sleeping bag, pillow, change of clothes, and some food. He was at 10 pounds. He never slowed up, but did complain about the weight. Lot of that though was him not knowing what to expect, in other words, any pack is going to have weight and be a bother to a certain extent. On the way back I packed his sleeping bag and we were doing a very fast pace, he never said a word. He did have to hump my pillow back though.

My suggestion is whatever you do, pack up and walk around the neighborhood for a mile and get a feel. Thats what we did and why I changed packs on the boy.

I'm in a similar position to the person that started this thread. My son crossed over to a troop that is great in most respects. While I'm experienced in Scouting, I'm starting as an outsider in the Troop leadership and building my reputation. I have a concern that the troop has a "we've got this all figured out and we're not interested in changing the system" attitude.

I'd love to go to Philmont in a few years with my son and I'm fascinated with how far UL gear has come. I've started collecting my own kit and cost isn't that big an issue for me personally because I have a very good idea of what its worth to eliminate a pound on my back and I have an old back injury that I must give due respect to. However, when it comes to outfitting a crew for an outing, cost is a sticking point.

My question of the day has to do with tents. There are a lot of name brand tents out there that are in the 4-5 pound range for two people. In this range, you can spend anywhere from $150 to $300 without getting any real weight benefit. I've found a few true UL tents down in the 1.75 to 2.5 pound range, which almost always run in the $250-$350 range.

My troop already has "backpacking" tents of the 4-5 pound variety. To sell them on getting lighter tents the cost has to be a lot more reasonable than $300. Do any of you have field experience with the AppyTrails tents (especially using them with Scouts)? The prices are around $100, which a troop could swing, but its almost too good to be true.

We bought some Appy tents for our troop (one of each size), but haven't gotten to test them enough for me to recommend them. And they haven't been rained on yet. Splitting a 5# tent between 2-3 guys isn't too bad weightwise anyway. The best thing to do is probably just to wait until the tents you have need replacing. It's pretty hard to find something at a light weight, and a price most troops can afford, that will withstand the abuse of Boy Scouts.

those Appy Tents have no floors. I just checked because I'm looking for a light weight tent that's affordable as well. Down here in Florida, I'm hesistent to go backpacking with a tent with no floor so that would be the "to good to be true" deal with me. Unless I missed the floor model.

I've done some reading up on making tents. Doesn't seem to be to hard and appears to be cheap. Maybe worth looking into as that could be a good troop project as well.

I knew the appytrails tents had no integral floor. There are lots of UL shelter options that are floorless. I don't plan to lie in the dirt either. I would use a ground cloth of some sort to stay drier. I know when I was a kid, I spent many nights under floorless canvas tents, including some pretty wet weather.

But since then, I guess I've gotten a little soft and what I'm trying to figure out is if the low cost/weight of the floorless tent is enough to get me over my middle-aged softness. In following these forums, it seems that part of the UL ethic is questioning our unwritten assumptions about what we need.

We cut tyvek to fit our Appy tents; it makes a nice groundcloth without adding much weight.

i maybe to soft to as well. I wonder. Just here it seems to be to many bugs, snakes, skitters, rain, and dew, that I feel I need a floor. I went through basic training in OK and that was a different story. Out there I wouldn't mind not having a floor.

for one thing, I can't find a piece of ground around here that doesn't have some sort of ant hill on it.

Let me know what you end up with. My boy isn't boy scout age yet. However, he isn't old enough to tote much so I'm lugging it all right now. I have about a 8-10 pound tent right now thats to big. We are doing our second hike this weekend, about a 5-6 mile round trip, and that tent is really hanging on me right now. But I'm having a hard time justifying buying another tent with the cost of the UL ones out there.

I recommend that scouts use tarps with mosquito nets instead of tents because of the skills that come into play in setting up a tarp for prevailing conditions. Regarding ants, this is from a paper I give out to scout troops:

What if the ants are everywhere and you don’t have the option of moving? (This can be a real problem in established campgrounds and on river trips where you have to camp on gravel bars.) What if you don’t notice them until it’s too late? Fortunately, as long as you aren’t on top of the mound, you can take care of any ants with tribute. Yep, don’t fight them, buy them off.

As soon as you notice ants in your camping area, put a tribute at 4 or 5 places 15 or 20 feet from your tent. I put out the equivalent of one crushed soda cracker and a tablespoon of cooking oil (the oil from a can of sardines or smoked oysters works just fine) at each sacrifice point. Ants like starchy things for starters and then they will notice the oil. It’s the oil that will keep them busy all night because they will lick it off every grain of sand or piece of dirt, and they will be totally zonked out by morning. It’s sorta fun to watch the ants at work. The main thing is that they will completely clear out of your camping area to concentrate on the tribute you leave them. If you are staying more than one night, you will need to renew the tribute before sundown.

That's genius.

sardine oil 15 feet from your tent? are you serious!?

Depends on where you live.

As a scout, I accidentally learned this trick for ant management. I had packed some hard candy for summer camp. The first day, the ants found my stash. I sorted out the pieces they had started eating from the ones they hadn't and tossed the damaged ones a few feet from my tent (I was 12 and my LNT skills were as yet untapped.) The ants happily spent the rest of the week nibbling (licking?) the candy away from the tent and left the rest alone.

Later as a bachelor I modified the method for my apartment. If I noticed ants anywhere, I would leave a cookie in the general area. Over the next day, the ants would form a well defined trail that I could follw back to their entry point. One quick spritz of Raid would kill the trail and the ants would be gone without toxifying my entire living space.

"Depends on where you live."

i understand, Joe, and Vick never did say where he lived.. but maybe he doesnt hike where he lives.. :P

i would still think sans bears you might get skunks, ringtails, mice, squirrels, bats, badgers, wolves, coyotes, and el chupacabra putting stinkbait in your camp.

not my idea of a good time. i'll avoid ants by hanging above them. :)

No, you have to put out a salsa trail, leading to a goat, before a Chupacabra will come in.

Michael, kudos to your for thinking light-weight from the start. BSA needs a cultural shift to the light-weight, low-impact, LNT approach to the outdoors. When my son moved from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouting, most of the troops in our area had a heavy infrastructure approach to camping. One troop we visited boasted that they had two trailers loaded with picnic tables, generators, and high intensity lighting like you see at night at a construction site. About the same time, one of my backpacking friends told me the best thing about the Boy Scouts was that they never left the parking lot. How sad.

We ended up gathering eleven families and chartering a new troop with a light-weight backpacking model for our outdoor program. It was a great success. I was very proud of the eagerness with which our kids took to the program. Lighting their loads became a game for them.

Surprise: 11-year-olds can backpack! But you have to be careful not to overload them and ease them into the sport or they will be miserable. Weigh your scouts and their packs before every trip and stick rigidly to maximum "skin out" loads of no more than 25% of body weight including boots/shoes. The lighter the better. Smaller boys may not be able to go on a multi day trip because they can't handle the loads.

If you don't have to carry water, don't. Carry only the water you will drink on the trail, camp at wet camps In suburban areas were surface water is likely contaminated, try to arrange for "water drops" in plastic Jerry cans. Many campmasters will do this for you if you ask.

Increase hiking distances gradually, starting out with a one mile overnighter and building slowly to four or five miles. Teach the older boys, then let them teach the younger ones the backcountry tricks and techniques they have learned. Give an older bigger scout the responsibility of partnering with a younger smaller scout to share his load.

We've found Kelty Gunnison 4.1 tents to be ideal. They are reasonably resistant to kid use and not too expensive. You can actually sleep four scouts in one, if they stow their gear under a tarp, Philmont style. The boys seem to have a lot more fun with four to a tent. Two doors allow for entrance and exit out either side and the extra vestibule provides plenty of space for boots. At 8.4 lbs, the four-man Gunnison weighs only 2.1 lbs per scout. Our troop has both four-man and two-man Kelty Gunnisons to balance space and with attendance.

Ultra light backpacking is a bit complicated and can be quite challenging for younger kids without a lot of adult supervision. Our aim is to lead them to self-sufficency. Adding a little more weight in the form of durable gear may be a wise accomodation. I will upload the gear list our troop uses for spring and fall backpacking.

Best of luck to you.

Patrick,

I'm looking forward to your list. At the same time my son is getting started in Boy Scouts, my wife and I are preparing to launch a Venture Crew to meet the needs of my 14 yr old daughter. Since the Crew would be starting from scratch, with little money and little gear to start with, I'd like to start with a clean sheet and build up our gear and methods along a lightweight model.

I have found that scouts will naturally practice lightweight skills without even knowing it. The only problem is they carry a heavy load to accomplish it.

What do I mean? Kids (with moms in the background) will always take too many clothes like a change of underwear a day. However, they the same underwear all week long. Same for shirts, socks, shoes, etc. They also take a lot of food and don't eat it all; often bringing back a day or two worth of food.

Once you point out to the kids that they really didn't need or use a lot of the stuff they had in their pack they can drop a lot of weight. At that point you can work on getting lighter equipment. Our troop has tents that weigh about 4.5 lbs. They are traditional tents with bug net and fly, We just split the tent between two boys and they each carry a bit more than 2 lbs.

As some have noted, once you get them into the swing of things you can get them to think lightweight all on their own.

> looking forward to your list

Roger,

I just uploaded our T511 spring/fall clothing and gear list. The list includes load calculation fields so scouts and leaders can weigh themselves and their gear before a shakedown. We used to only supply a clothing/gear list, but packs were way too heavy and full with no room for troop gear. The addition of the load calculation fields really raised everyone's awareness of weight and got many weighing every item before packing it. It allows everyone to calculate a both a "target" (0.12)and "max" (0.18)load as a fraction of body weight. The load range from target to max (17-25 lbs)for personal gear and clothing is aimed a scout weighing 135 lbs. Add patrol gear and food and most are carrying 25-30 lbs. Some in the BPL universe would consider this heresy. But we have risk-related issues that take priority over feather weight gear when trekking with kids (health, safety, durability, reliability) As you know, to "be prepared" and minmize risk it is just plain common sense to carry bit more to ensure an extra margin of safety. Our bigger stronger boys always carry more than our smaller boys.

With a 10 person crew there are clearly some ways to cut weight like sharing hand sanitizers, cameras, pocket knives. But these don't amount to much and we're trying to teach each scout what he needs to camp in the backcountry.

As for troop/crew gear, we try use 4-man tents (Kelty Gunnison 4.1 @ 8.5 lb/ea)to minimize tent weight per person. We have a very light-weight high capacity water filtration system using 5-gallon collapsible water boxes and the Platypus gravity filter that works great. We just bought MSR Reactors (18 oz w/o fuel)…WOW are they efficent! We carry a light-weight sil-poly gear tarp and practice the "Bearmuda Triangle" to prepare our scouts for Philmont begining with their first camp.

Lastly, I think the list could be trimmed a bit for Philmont (e.g. two pair of light-weight thermals and no fleece), lighter sleeping bag, etc.

Thanks for sharing, Patrick. Just a couple questions from glancing over your list (keep in mind I'm just starting BP-ing). Is it really more expensive to find Scout appropriate packs and bags that are less than 3 lbs (you list each at 3-4 lbs)? I never realized the "avg" bag was so heavy – just zipped over to coleman.com and discovered at least one 30* bag with 5 lbs of insulation! So I answered my own question there, at least for bags.

That begs the question, what are the least expensive sub 3 lb 20* bags that can handle abuse? At Campmor, I see some (eg, Slumberjack) starting at $60 and I've seen several at BPL recommend the Campmor Goose Down 20* bag at twice that but just 36 oz.

As for packs I've seen the Osprey Ace recommended and it's just shy of 4 lbs so I guess I answered that question, too. :)

As for your tent/tarp weight you list 3.8 lbs, which I assume is whichever adult or older Scout gets stuck with the actual Gunnison body. I'd think the fly, poles, stakes, groundcloth, silnylon tarp, etc carried by the other 3 would be much lighter than that. Is this correct?

What do your Scouts/Scouters typically do for rain gear?

How has the CleanStream filter worked for you over time? What is your backup if it fails?

It seems you're missing at least map and whistle from your "essentials". No real effect on weight though which was the focus of your list.

Do you do any recognition for those who beat the target or whoever has the lowest base weight?

>> One troop we visited boasted that they had two trailers loaded with picnic tables, generators, and high intensity lighting like you see at night at a construction site.

WOW! I feel sorry for those kids. They are missing out on much of the Scout experience it would seem.

Michael,

>>Is it really more expensive to find Scout appropriate packs and bags that are less than 3 lbs (you list each at 3-4 lbs)?
+ Most scouts (and scouters) carry huge packs with lots of straps, zippers, and pockets. For weekend BP trips 2500 – 3500 cu.in. (40-57 L) is a good size for most boys; 3500-4500 cu.in. (57-75 L) is a good size for larger boys and adults. Some women's packs fit smaller boys better than men's packs. I carry a Gossamer Gear Mariposa Plus (17 oz), but believe it’s too fragile for kid use. GoLite makes a number of packs under three pounds. Every scout family has a different budget, but there are plenty of packs on the market that balance weight and features.

>> I never realized the "avg" bag was so heavy
– The North Face Cat’s Meow (-6C/+20) is close to ideal for scout backpacking. The model has been around for more than 25 years. For about the cost of a typical hotel room you get a great synthetic bag at just 1.2kg (2lb 10oz) with a storage bag and compression sack that can be stuffed small (14 L / 8” x 17”). As you know, down bags pack small and light with superior insulating ability. But they are expensive and a luxury for most scouts. There are also some new hybrid bags that combine synthetic and down fill and break the 3-pound barrier. If it’s in your budget, I’d have a 3-season (-4/+25F) synthetic bag for spring/summer/fall and a (-10C/+15F) down bag for winter camping. Scouts can easily press another 3C/5F from any bag by sleeping in thermals or fleece.

>>Tent/tarp weight 3.8 lbs
– We try our best to keep the tent elements together. If we split up the rain fly, body, poles, etc. we have a heck of a time getting things back together before the next campout. One scout may carry the 8-pound tent for his patrol and little, if any, additional patrol food or gear.

>>What do your Scouts/Scouters typically do for rain gear?
+ Some scouts wear rain pants with a poncho, but a rain suit is preferable to a poncho because it serves as windproof layer. Ponchos are hard to control in a windy rain and act like a sail on a float trip. Rain suits cost a little bit more. The Red Ledge (a.k.a. Red Head) rain suit isn’t long on features, but it’s light, packs small, moderately breathable, quite suitable for scouts, and not too expensive ($25 – $50 online). The Marmot Precip is a good rainsuit for around $100 and has features like pit zips, and vents. Frog Togs are certainly light (perforated Tyvek), but I find they snag easily on outdoor surfaces (brush, rock, trees). You can spend a lot more.

>>Clean Stream Filter? What is your backup if it fails?
+ We started using the Platypus Clean Stream on our last campout. We bought the replacement filter ($35) rather than the entire system and found some collapsible plastic water boxes with nozzles that neatly and snugly accommodate the O-ring attachments and tubing from standard hydration bladders. This permits us to filter 20L (5 gal) in about 30 minutes. The whole kit weighs about 500g (1.1 lb). Carry a second filter as backup.

>>It seems you're missing at least map and whistle from your "essentials".
+ Topo maps are a given on every trip; we never go anywhere without a local map. Whistles are an annoyance, as younger scouts tend to over use them. We don’t trek in groups larger than 10 (Parks Canada policy), strictly adhere to the buddy system in bear country, and don’t ever split up. As a rule, everyone stays within earshot.

>>Recognition for those who beat the target or whoever has the lowest base weight?
+ Most definitely….this can be as simple as being first inline for chow.