Thru-hiking with a 3 month old baby?

[Mary D]

Another health hint from hikinggranny:

Diaper rash could become a real issue with baby in the carrier all day. Take plenty of ointment (whatever you find that works) and plan to change diapers frequently. You may find that, like it or not, you have to use disposable diapers (which wick the moisture away from the skin) to keep diaper rash away. I always was rigidly against disposables until my son and daughter-in-law switched to disposables in desperation when their oldest was about 8 months old. They never had problems with diaper rash after that. Of course back when my son was a baby (he just turned 40), disposables were not what they are now and the babies got worse rashes from disposables than from cloth diapers. Technology has changed!

[Steve Robinson]

I wonder if there are any issues with repeatedly taking a baby into higher elevations and associated reduced oxygen levels. The brain is growing like crazy at this age and I'd want to be sure that there wouldn't be any issue with this.

While babies are born and raised at high elevations, will they do OK with rapid ascent if aclimated to a much lower elevation.

[Nick Meynen]

I never thought that most of the remaining problems that we needed to solve would be adressed that quickly with advice from that many people. Thanks to you all! I also never expected to convince everyone but there are some concerns I like to respond to and some further questions I like to ask.
Vaccination issue: in my country only polio is obligatory and yes we will do the polio shots. I know a doctor advizing against taking the others and for good, medical reasons. Trekking or no trekking, we would not give any other shot then polio in her baby years.
Remoteness and altitude issue: for those of you who do not know the region; the GR10 follows the pyreneees along a parallel north of the main ridge and it rarely goes higher then 2000m (and where it does, we will seriously consider the lower route around, and yes there always is a lower route around) The walk is from one village to the other, with only one stretch where villages are more then a few hours away (a stretch that we will circumvent by using a populated area). The GR10 actually never crosses the main ridge, (where the high route goes). So for those confusing our trip with the “into the wild” movie or book: think again.
Diapers issue: as responsible mountain guides we do not even think of letting any waste behind in the mountains, this is a non-issue for us. Before blaiming us on polutting rivers, who told that we would wash them in the river? I know, the diaper issues is something that keeps me worrying but for every problem there is a solution and it seems some people already found that solution before I did so let's see what their options are. Maybe we could use a seperate large pot for this use only? To get into some dirty details: renewable diapers need a biodegradable tissue inside to get rid of the “heavy loads”, so washing them is less ugly as it seems. Yes we will bury these biodegradable tissues and no, not next to the river.
To Roger CAffin: another round of thanks to you! The poncho is a very good idea. Light and handy. In case one tears apart, it is easy to include some spares in the post packages. We looove bread and cheese but a few nuts and dried fruit are good additions to our diet.
To Doug Johnson: many thanks again! Well, I guess we will have to figure out the gore tex versus poncho issue on our test trip in May. Unless more people with experience keep insisting on one of the two options The sleeping advice I will study in more detail! Sound great. We did not give that part many thoughts yet, so very helpful.
To Tad Englund: I could not agree more with your last sentences and yes “WHY NOT, instead of why.”
To John Carter: it is our first baby yes, that helps. And no we do not take the high route, see above.

well there is too much to answer but yes we have our baby thermometer, thanks for the feedback from the other nick, thanks to mary again on the diaper rash issue, if it does not work out then we have shops like every two or three days so we could possibly switch on the way if necessary (i should check if these small shops have diapers though) and according to the literature the baby should stay below 2000m, what we intend to do.

Again, can't say it enough: many thanks to you all. Will keep you posted once we get home (possibly a week, hopefully two months after 8 June)

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Nick

I am sure many here would love to hear all about it when you come back. Have you considered writing an article about the trip? You need to take the photos, but I can help with the writing if you want.

Cheers
[email protected]

[Robert Bryant]

"Have you considered writing an article about the trip?"

All he will need to do is [tasteless comment removed].

[Chad Miller]

Oh come now Robert, if you're not mature enough to stand by what you said and simply apologize for your writings then maybe you shouldn't be using this online community.

Back on topic . . . I think that the couple and their young child will do just fine on this trip. It sounds like they have very flexible plans and have learned a great deal from the comments left here. I'll be interested to learn how the shorter trips work out. Even if the couple doesn’t get to do their through hike they will have learned a great deal. Good for both, er all three of you!

P.S. If you don’t mind take some pictures of you three on the trail for us so we can see your baby set up.

[Jesse Glover]

Chad I believe that post was edited by a mod.

I would love to see an article BTW and some pics.

[Chad Miller]

Hmm, well if Roberts' post was so crass that it had to be modified by a mod then I defiantly feel he shouldn't be using this forum! Go be a passive aggressive tool somewhere else Robert.

[Nick Meynen]

Just back from a first camping experience with our 6 week old daughter. Test 1 for the coast to coast trek along the pyreneees. Great fun for all three of us. I had a 12 kg pack (many thanks to osprey exos 46, vaude hogan ultralight, mountain hardware phantom 32, 2/3th thermarest mattress) including 2 liters of water and 500gr of food at the start (no cooking utensils or spare cloths). My wife just had our daughter, now 5kg, in a sling.+++ Sleeping setup for baby is simple, light and comfortable: you cut a 40-70cm basic foam mattress from a 4euro large one, you wrap the sling around it to create a soft bed, you wrap your baby tight in the multi-functional sjawl which my wifes always takes with her (we do have to learn how to do that better though) and to finish it off: this whole package,including baby AND mattress, goes IN daddy's TNF fleece with zipper half open. OK, she had one sudden fire-alarm-level cry at 4AM but that is more her usual way to get rid of a nightmare. +++ To end the diaper discussion: 25 diapers are 625gm and it seems she does not need more then 5 for 24 hours. By post we can manage to send a package every 5 days ahead. A few dirty ones in a special waste storage bag is managable for a day or max two, when we are in villages with dustbins. +++ altitudeproblem? no way. A well known and recommended pediatrician has just told us that sleeping under 2000 and walking under 3000 would be perfectly fine as long as we take it easy when walking up and when you take a few weeks to reach 2500 max walking that seems fine +++ this all leaves us at one big issue remaining: the level of sleep that we will enjoy and the relating fitness, especially mom's. If the nights keep improving as they do then we seem to have a good chance for the whole trip +++ it rained whole night but inside? dry! even with three in a small 2 person tent of 120cm wide. i love this tent+++ you should have seen her eyes staring at all that greenery, never seen her so quiet on an evening as yesterday, is it in the genes? +++ what we did not take was a camera, my canon EOS400 is way too heavy so anybody advice for a ultralight but still good camera able to do just a little bit of filming as well? say 300gram?

Nick

[Art Sandt]

I wish people who are not doctors would stop giving medical advice in this thread. Roger, I'm looking at you. Just because your child didn't need vaccinations or you couldn't POSSIBLY imagine bugs being a problem for a baby doesn't mean this child will turn out to have the same requirements. Did you ever consider that it's during this young age that parents find out whether or not their babies will have certain allergies? What happens, then, if they "find out" that their child is allergic to bee stings and the nearest hospital is even a 4 mile hike away?

Nick, you're being repeatedly told that taking a newborn infant on a 2 month hike is irresponsible and selfish because it IS irresponsible and selfish. This is a time in a child's life when it needs to be given a great deal of attention and care. The concerns raised by James K are very valid and I have yet to see you address them.

To Tad and the other people making comparisons to foreign cultures and cultures of the past but who obviously have zero direct experience living in those kinds of cultures, please listen to Mr. Carter on this one:

"But more to the point regarding pioneers: infants would most certainly have been in covered wagons with a mother, or on some kind of pack animal, traveling mostly flat (though rugged) lowlands punctuated by the occasional mountain pass. That's very different than carrying the entire load of a baby the entire time over the crest of an entire mountain range."

Going "back to nature" sounds very romantic when talked about over a nice cup of tea. But when you try to justify taking a newborn baby out into the mountains for as long as 2 months by claiming that "3 billion mothers outside the West [carry their babies in slings]," that's taking it too far.

For starters, those mothers who carry their babies into the rice fields are not going to be unduly exposing them to the elements like you would in the mountains. Rice harvesting season is the warm season and instead of trying to force everything under a poncho when it rains, they can STOP WORK and go inside completely away from the rain. When you're in the mountains you just don't have that option. Secondly, a baby may be able to rest, even sleep, in a sling when it's carried around at home, but hiking is not walking. There is far too much movement and change in temperatures for it to be as comfortable. The wind and sun alone would be too much unless the weather was overcast and calm for the entire trip. I propose that being carried for so long attached to a hiking body would be quite a bit more tiring than relaxing for a baby.

Nick, I hope to God that your child gets through the ordeal in good health, or that you come to your senses before it's too late.

[Greg Mihalik]

Baby On Board down the Green River.

"A couple plopped their baby in a basket and floated into the wild. Do they deserve applause or a visit from child protective services?"

Different strokes for different folks.

[Art Sandt]

Not defending them, but the risks and potential for mental and physical stress are very different between these trips. Eight days being able to lay prostrate and crawl around in a boat is a much easier trip on a baby than 2 months strapped in a carrier trudging through the mountains.

[Doug Johnson]

I disagree. These folks on the raft had no easy bailout. The hikers have many bailouts and can cut the trip short almost immediately.

The high temps of the rafting trip could have led to serious consequences in an extremely short period of time.

[Greg Mihalik]

Doug,
I'll counterpoint your comments on high temperatures with my experience floating on the Green in April a long time ago.

It was hot until a storm moved in. That rain was Cold! It was torrential. And within a half a hour I was nearly hypothermic. Enough so that I scared the others in our group. We dealt with it and a hour later all was well.

Every remote route has its challenges, and they are not all obvious at first glance. But if you go ready for everything there is no reason not to give it a try.

[Erwin Vanderlinden]

Nick, regarding your camera question: I am ditching my EOS40D for a Panasonic G1 with an Olympus 25mm pancake lens: 460g total weight. Even more lightweight: the new Sigma DP2: 260g including 40mm lens.

Regarding your wife carrying your daughter in a sling, have you considered the ERGO Baby Carrier? It shares some characteristics with a standard child carrier backpack (supporting belt, possibility to add a small storage area), but unlike most of them it is nearly as lightweight as a sling.

[David Drake]

I'm new to these forums (been reading them for a couple months) but not to backpacking or parenting. I mentioned this thread to my wife–her reaction was something like "Sounds like hard work, but how cool." She's a labor and delivery nurse, and mother of our three kids (7 months, 8 years and 15 years), so knows a thing or two about both children and medicine. One of our kids needed some intervention at birth (minor but life-saving) so we know a bit about risk and the importance of modern medicine, as well.

Stupid and irresponsible? Two well-trained, experienced mountain guides have carefully planned a walk at reasonable elevations, along a well-travelled route lined with villages, cell-phone service and staffed "refuges" that offer beds and hot meals served family-style (it only took me a minute with Google to confirm huts along the G10 are nothing at all like the shelters on the AT, something Nick and his wife already knew of course, but which the negative posters here apparently didn't bother to learn).

In my reading, Nick has more than addressed all of James K's valid concerns, and been more than tolerant of the implied threat that such a trip would, in the US, be considered a criminal offense (how else would parents be explaining themselves to a judge, unless arrested by someone in law enforcement?)

The notion that 3 month old babies require "weekly/monthly" immunizations is just flat wrong. I am strongly pro-vaccine, and wouldn't do the polio-only route that Nick and his wife have chosen, but that has no bearing on their planned hike. If anything, the baby will be far less exposed to diseases in the mountains than in a dense urban area.

Bugs? I can understand this being on the radar screen of someone from the Southeastern US, and Art Standt's bee sting allergy example sounds compelling, until one realizes that "a 4 mile hike" could easily be covered in under an hour (given an emergency), so the allergic reaction argument is really saying, "Until your child is stung by a bee (and proves non-allergic), it is stupid and irresponsible to ever have them more than an hour from a hospital." Do you really believe that?

I would argue that most of the posters here who think Nick and his wife are being "stupid and irresponsible" are thinking of some hike in _their_ imagination, not the actual hike that is (presumably) being enjoyed as I post. People aren't even paying attention to the obvious–for example, warning about the dangers of untreated water for a baby that will be drinking nothing but breastmilk, assuming diapers will be washed in rivers, or suggesting a raft trip is less irresponsible because the baby will be able to crawl around during the day (3-5 month olds don't crawl). Art, have you ever carried a baby in a frontpack, backpack or sling while hiking? I have, my wife has, and the mothers posting here have as well (all of whom, curiously, seem to support the trip). Your concerns about comfort and rest are badly misplaced.

Finally, and admittedly a little off-topic, what *is* stupid and irresponsible is that the richest, most powerful nation on earth lets millions of its children go to bed every night malnourished, ill-clothed and ill-housed, badly educated and without any real access to health care. Since the Netherlands and every nation of the G10 route through the Pyrenees solved that huge child endangerment problem a long time ago, what a Dutch couple chose to do or not do with a single infant isn't at the top of my list of things to worry about.

I look forward to reading more about Nick, his family, and what is surely a wonderful adventure.

[Nick Meynen]

Thanks for the wonderful words David! We could not be better motivated 5 minutes before leaving the house on our journey then with reading your post! One detail: although we speak Dutch we're actually from Belgium but hey, we also have a health care system to be proud of so doesn't really matter that much…

I promised to keep the most interested among you posted so here's a last post before we hit the trail. I'm always open to last minute advice (except: “do not even give it a try”). I will read my email on 8 july in the evening and 9 july in the morning in south of france, before we start walking the GR10

Condition: After 6 really hard weeks with a reflux baby and an exhausted mother things start looking better just 2 weeks before we hit the pyrenees GR10 trail with our now 3 month old baby. Nights have improved big time, mother is following a start to run program and she lost almost all of the 22 kgs she gained from pregnancy, except for a few bastards which she intents to kick out after the first week or so.

Stuff: We slashed our combined pack weight from 30kg ten years ago (when I was a teenager taking a melon and a 1 kg book in my back) to 20kg a year ago (after 3000km in the Himalayas you know what you do NOT need) to 11kg today (the advantage of becoming a litlle nerdy on the weight issue with the help of this forum). With the 9 kg the baby and her stuff are bringing in we are still at the same weight as we used to be! Add some 3-4 kg on water and food and we end up with me taking a 15kg Osprey Exos 46 and my wife the baby plus a tiny hipbag with only water, a jacket and some small stuff. Nobody outside this forum believes me when I tell them, especially those friends who have hard times getting all the baby stuff in their car for a weekend. We opted for lightweight gore-tex instead of ponchos.

Logistics: posting packages to 'gites d'etappes' every 5 days ahead. After three of these packages we end up in a city where we can do the same process, only in case all goes well and we decide to continue.

Diapers: Ok, the cotton ones are really too heavy so for this trip we decide to use biodegradable but throwable diapers but in case you're hair is raising: we would never even think of throwing diapers in nature. Plenty of garbage bind on the trail (and a temporary garbage bag with us)

Safety: we have a mobile phone with us, as a preventive measure we plan to ask for the nearest doctor in every mountain hut or place we sleep, we have a limited first aid set for babies, we skip the highest pass, thereby staying below 2500 and sleeping below 2000 (our pediatrician told us a baby can walk up to 3000m and sleep up to 2000m if you go slowly and she wished us a good trip in the mountains, after we explained the whole trip). Our insurance covers helikopter rescue and yes the pyrenees have such facility.

[Ashley Brown]

Good luck and have a great trip!

Sounds like you are well organised. You have probably already done this, but I would make sure I had at least two mobile phones and spare batteries. Good plan on asking for the phone numbers of nearby doctors too.

[Rod Lawlor]

Nick it sounds fantastic. Congratulations on getting there, and staying true to your plan.

It's great that you have been able to make compromises that work for you.

Two small suggestions. I agree with Franco, that it would be ideal to carry two mobile phones. My experience with SAR is that when you need assistance, communications are vital. It would also allow you to relay information much more effectively if you need to talk to more than one agency, plus it makes it easier to co-ordinate with your wife in town. I wouldn't carry a spare battery, but rather a plug in pack that takes AA batteries. These are very light, but allow you to cannibalise batteries from your head torches, etc. You can also use AAAs in them.

When my children were small, I used a plastic rubbish bag to keep them warm and dry when they were on the bike seat. By cutting/tearing a hole in the bottom and pulling it down over their head, it forms a very lightweight, effective vapour barrier, that encloses the arms and legs. It's not great for all day use, but for the time it takes to get you somewhere safe and dry it's excellent. Clearly all the normal caution about putting small children in plastic bags needs to be observed!!

Please post some photo's when you can, as it sounds like a great trip.

[Woubeir (from Europe)]

Nick,
good luck and enjoy the trip. And don't forget to write a trip report afterwards on Hiking.be. Both the combination of going lightweight and taking your baby with you will make for a remarkable story and will show that more is possible than mot people can imagine.

BTW, am I right that you are from L…..

[Mary D]

Best wishes to Nick, Mom and Baby as you start your trip! Please keep us posted on your progress! Note that a couple of the BPL staff have urged you to write an article for them when the trip is over–I'd love to see it!

[Nick Meynen]

Thanks for the last advice! We have 2 sim cards but not 2 mobiles, should be fine for making that emergency call if needed. We will just charge a bit earlier in order to be sure. The garbage bag jacket: once you get over the idea of putting your baby in a garbage back the idea sounds good. we have plastic bags to carry her for example from the tent to the hut in the rain. While walking she stays dry inside the gore-tex with umbrella (wind proof one). I'll write an article and post some pictures when we get back. thanks to all of you!

[Millette Jones]

Just came across this while researching packrafting…these folks seemed to get along fairly well with a baby.

Looks like there are little adventurers all over! Hope you all have a fun and safe trip!

http://www.groundtruthtrekking.org/blog/

edited to add the "baby's" blog…
http://www.katmaimckittrick.net/blog/?p=94

[Tad Englund]

Nick, best of luck- I wish I could have done that when I was your age-

[Doug Johnson]

Have a wonderful trip Nick!

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