Bottoms layering schemes

Is it alright if I tag my question onto yours? I HATE cold weather and have NEVER ventured out below 30F. I’m off to Denver in a few days where temps are expected to hover somewhere between 30F and teens.

Anticipating “the teens”, I plan to bring these bottoms:

1. synthetic long johns
2. REI Sahara hiking pants (supplex)
3. MontBell Thermawrap pants
4. MontBell Versalite wp/b pants (shell)

May seem like a lot of layers, but they are all lightweight garments, so any feedback will be appreciated.

More addressed to BT.
Depends on your activities, or lack thereof. If used all together that’s a lot of layers for something active like skiing or ‘shoeing or even walking around downtown Denver and in fact will either be too warm, cramp your mobility or both. If you are envisioning a systems approach for multiple levels of activity/inactivity (i.e. sitting around camp and for additional warmth inside a sleeping bag as well as tromping about) this could all be rather versatile.

Personally, for such temperatures(high teens to 40’s), I like using a softshell pants/hardshell combo over silkweight leggings which will keep me warm and comfortable over a broad range of temps. and activities. The hardshell is only on if conditions really deteriate (lotsa snow/wind).I thus keep fussy layer changes to a minimum—an advantage I think. Overnight Winter trips in the backcountry is where I whip out the insulated pants.

If you really find it hard to acclimitize to cold, what can I say? All is ultimately fair in love, war (?) and keeping warm.

Thanks, Kevin.

You wrote, ” If you are envisioning a systems approach for multiple levels of activity/inactivity (i.e. sitting around camp and for additional warmth inside a sleeping bag as well as tromping about) this could all be rather versatile”.

Yes, that’s exactly what I was envisioning. A set of clothes to put on / take off depending on rest or motion — at a temp range of 10’s and up — yet NOT an overkill in terms of weight or bulk.

Weighing the pieces:

Long johns – 8 oz
REI pants – 12 oz
MontBell Thermawrap pants – 11 oz
MB rain pants – 7 oz

Total – 38 oz or just over 2 lbs.

Great question. Although it’s January now, let’s complicate matters by imagining that it’s sometime in April where temps down here in the south can range from freezing at night to upper 70’s in the daytime.

Trying to come up with a versatile and *light* lower body layering system that does not require the removal of long johns in hot weather (sorry folks, I’m just not doing that shorts n’ thermals look…my wife forbids it) is an interesting matter.

Any thoughts?

I had to go look at the Mont-Bell stuff– they continually surprise me with their offerings.

Seems like the Thermawraps are close to the DriClime niche. My impression is that the REI Saharah’s are not needed — the Versalite layer does much the same.

I’ll offer you the conclusion I came to– for colder weather, keep the insulating Thermawraps and outer rain/wind layer and either substitute a pair of expedition weight long johns or add them to the existing synthetic long johns. Having two pairs of long johns is probably overkill. I still like the idea of being able to alternate the long johns and insulating layers under a rain/wind shell. That outer layer of Vesalite should keep the wind out, which is what I would fear in cold-but-dry conditions.

As other’s posted, the activity level will dictate the layering. I don’t like ending up looking (or feeling) like the Michelin Man either!

I read up on the Cocoon gear reviewed on BPL and conclude that level of insulation is for sleeping and camp use– like climbers who wear high loft insulation for belaying, not for strenuous climbing.

In that case, Ben, the only improvement to your system I would suggest is to substitute one of the lighter weight softshell pants for the Supplex pants. Such as the lighter flavor of Cloudveil Inertia (Peak pants is the latest iteration), the dicontinued but still available Golite Synergy (Pertex Equilibrium), the Arcteryx Gamma LT, or the upcoming Patagonia Readymix pants. All are 10 oz. or less in L and offer better moisture management, greater comfort range, and built in stretch compared to the Sahara.

I would agree w/ Dale that your most expendable layer would be the Sahara/ softshell. Unless you were engaged in Winter gravity sports.

I would love to see a side by side evauation of the Montbell Thermowrap, BMW Cocoon and Patagonia Micropuff pants.

Kevin:

Thanks again. Now, I’m thinking, in lieu of buying softshell, I’ll use what I got, to the extent they make sense. If the long john and supplex pants duplicate each other, then I think I will take out the long john — and use that as sleep wear exclusively. So my layers will be: briefs, REI pants, MB insulation pants, and MB wp/b pants.

I don’t think I want to eliminate the REI Sahara since I can wear that in town (Denver).

I’m sort of surprised at these responses, coming from what I assume are young or middle-aged men. Right now where I am it is exactly 30F outside, cloudy, with a light wind and snowing lightly, and almost everyone is just wearing jeans and some sort of medium weight jacket (shelled fleece, unshelled fleece, cotton sweatshirt, a few people with puffy down jackets). This includes construction workers who will presumably be out in this sort of cold all day. When the UPS man came by, he was wearing short pants, some sort of medium weight insulated jacket, and no hat. I was wearing supplex nylon pants myself while walking around town. Yes, the wind whips right through them, but 30F is simply NOT that cold for most people. As long as you’re moving and it’s dry and you have protection for your torso and head, I really don’t see why you need much protection for your legs.

So my recommendation for bottom layers, other than for winter, is thin nylon shorts for underwear/warm weather/sleeping, long breathable nylon pants for cool weather, mosquito and thorn protection, and possibly rain pants for when it is either below freezing or near freezing and rainy. I really see no reason for thermal underwear for healthy young or middle-aged men unless you are expecting temperatures below 20F.

BTW I am a middle-aged man myself and have a medium or low metabolism. When other people are bare-handed, I tend to wear light mittens. When other people have on a simple fleece jacket, I have on a thicker Polarguard jacket. So the above recommendations are hardly extremist.

For winter, I would recommend a thin merino wool base layer under heavyweight Goretex rain pants (heavyweight so it doesn’t get shredded easily). This should be okay for temperatures down to about 10F. Remember, if you are doing heavy work, you can be comfortable at 10F with very little cloting. Don’t believe me? Try digging a hole in the ground or chopping wood at 10F at you’ll see what I mean. Once you stop moving at 10F, of course, you’ll needed some sort of thick insulating pants.

Also remember that 10F and below is vapor barrier territory. At these temperatures, there is a great risk of ruining your thick insulation with frost condensation. So I would strongly recommend any insulating pants for use in winter have a waterproof inner shell, such as silnylon. Condensation in the merino wool base layer is not a problem, since you can easily dry this out by sleeping in it. Vapor barrier protection is also highly advisable for your jacket at 10F.

Frank,

good to see you posting again. noticed your first post, after some months absence, a week or two ago. welcome back.

understood your comments about activity, inactivity, and the need for layers to regulate body warmth accordingly – very important to avoid sweating and the resultant evaporative chilling effect.

as to TEMPERATURE, here’s something i learned about 30yrs ago. after spending two years stationed in Orlando, Florida, i came back to Connecticut. boy, was i ever cold. whereas when i first went down there, i was underdressed compared to the Floridians, when i came back, i felt so cold and was overdressed cp. to the rest of the “Yanks” up here. eventually, i got re-acclimatized to the colder temps and dressed accordingly.

some of these guys are from warmer parts of the country, like California. they’re just not used to the cold is my guess.

again, good to see you posting again. take care.

Great question. Although it’s January now, let’s complicate matters by imagining that it’s sometime in April where temps down here in the south can range from freezing at night to upper 70’s in the daytime.

Trying to come up with a versatile and *light* lower body layering system that does not require the removal of long johns in hot weather (sorry folks, I’m just not doing that shorts n’ thermals look…my wife forbids it) is an interesting matter.

Any thoughts?

Ben,

Day:
Patagucci lightweight longjohns, and
*****-tex pants.

Night:
Patagucci silkweight longjohns,
Dancing Light VBL pants, and
200 PolarTec pants.
Maybe the ******-tex pants if sitting in the snow.

Where ya goin?

I must use a hard shell because I fall so often.

As a VB proponent, I don’t think the temperatures that Ben says he will be encountering justify VB pants as an active layer. VB pants/shirt or a VBL at night in his bag, perhaps, if nights are in the low 20’s or below.
I would want to know the rest of his sleeping system before I could recommend it.

The Dancing Light VB clothes, I find pretty primitive and uncomfortable. Far better are Stephenson/Warmlite’s and I expect better yet from RBH when they release their versions.

My legs tend to stay pretty warm. If I expect the temp is above 30F during the day I typically wear pair of Cloudveil Rodeo Pants or Ex Officio Supplex pants. If I am moving my legs stay warm enough. I will bring some rain pants, Frogg Toggs normally, and use them when it is raining to keep my legs dry. I will carry a pair of Patagonia Mid-weight Capilene Pants for sleeping in or if it turns really surprising cold (below 15F) while active.

If it is consistantly below 35F (maybe a bit warmer) I wear a pair of Marmot ATV pants which are made from Dryskin. This are great for me for any conditions down to around 10F. So long as it’s above 10F when I hop in my sleeping bag, I would most likely bring nothing else.

If I expected that day time temps to be below 10F, then I would wear a pair of patagonia mid-weight below the ATV pants, maybe bring a pair of montane featherlite wind pants.

If it was going to be constantly below something like -5F (haven’t done this in years) I would switch to ultralight tights and vapor barrier pants below the ATV pants or maybe some insulated pants (don’t own any currently). It just doesn’t get this cold where I take my winter trips.

–Mark

The correct way to use vapor barrier is to incorporate the vapor barrier into the garment itself. Examples: military Mickey Mouse boots and BLT’s own vapor mittens. For clothing, the correct design is to have a silnylon inner shell and then either a waterproof-breathable or else just a breathable outer shell, depending on the risk of external moisture.

Vapor barrier shirts and pants are nothing but a royal PITA, IMO. When you are exerting yourself heavily, you will perspire, even at 10F, and then you want to let heat escape. But the vapor barrier shirt and pants prevent that. So you either remove the VB shirt and pants, which is a nuisance, or you sweat soak the hell out of your base layer. Whereas if the vapor barrier is in the down vest or down jacket, then you just remove the vest or jacket and the perspiration can evaporate, thereby cooling you off and thus preventing excessive both perspiration and excessive loss of body moisture. Once the exertion stops, you put the vapor barrier down vest or down jacket back on, and the vapor barrier prevents the down from getting sweat-soaked by all the moisture accumulated in your base layer and wind shell garments. The moisture in the base layer and wind shell will eventually evaporate, but at a conrolled rate, depending on how tightly you secure the neck and bottoms of the insulated vest/jacket.

I know of no insulated clothing with vapor barrier linings, but I’m sure you could get Nunatak or one of the other custom manufacturers to use silnylon instead of breathable fabric for the inner shell.

Vapor barrier may not seem necessary at 10F, but you would be surprised at how much frost will accumulate in a jacket even at that temperature. Spend a day cross-country skiining at these temperatures and weigh your jacket before and after and you’ll see what I mean. If you are out for several days in a row and you don’t do something to dry the jacket out, eventually you will be walking around in a jacket that feels like ice, because that’s what it is–filled with ice from condensation of both sensible and insensible perspiration.

Stephenson’s vapor barrier sleep system sounds like a good idea–certainly he understands the theory of vapor barrier. The question is how well the ventilation options work in practice. Not having tried his bags, I can’t say. Also, since with the Stephenson vapor barrier sleep system you can’t dry out your clothing while sleeping, it is absolutely essential that you protect all your insulating clothing (other than a wool base layer) with vapor barrier. The stephenson vapor barrier shirt and pants will do this, but like I noted above, this is an uncomfortable solution. Much better to put the vapor barrier in the insulating clothing itself.

For some of the reasons you give, Frank, I’m more interested in VB clothing (apart for socks and perhaps handwear) in sleeping systems, where the activity levels are not a concern.
The use of a VB shirt/pants in a sleeping bag makes for a very versatile arrangement in that additional insulation (jackets, pants,etc.) can be added as temps. go down as well as protecting the insulation layers from body generated moisture. I don’t like the idea of a dedicated VB bag ( a la Warmlite) unless it were for long term Winter expeditionary use. I’d rather go for modularity.
BTW, I dislike the clammy feel of sil-nylon or coated
fabrics against the skin( which is where I wear my VB’s against) which is why I like the napped fabric that Stephenson and RBH uses.

We’re getting off topic— back to Dale and Ben.

As Frank mentioned the vb comes out as the temp drops but I do balance it against exertion level, go watch crosscountry skiers in a skate race in low temps. A thin nylon full body stretch suit and windfront paneled briefs.
I am a construction worker who is outside all winter and I dress as lightly as I can get away with. We had a couple of weeks of 5 degree temp and I wore vb everyday, usually changing sock liners at lunch [or complete boot systems]. This winter I’ve been really pleased with Craft synthetic long johns with a tunnel system and Brynje synthetic fishnet pants with a softshell like Black Diamond’s alpine pants or Ibex though work sees Carhart’s bibs, I wax the fronts like the old ventile cotton {Barbour]

This is really what I was after– a good all-purpose cold weather pants. The reality check on how many layers are needed when active was very good.

It’s easy to fall back into that “prepare for Antartica” mindset– off to battle Mother Nature, and she’ll win with gravity rather than cold :)

I basically agree w/ Mark Verber’s assessment. My most used pants in Winter, by far, are Schoeller Dryskin pants—made by many manufacturers. Beyond Fleece, my favorite, offers a whole gambit of softshell bottoms with the advantage of picking and choosing features plus getting custom sizing. They have a fine Website.

agree, too, on the Scholler dryskin as being a great choice for winter but I’ve found at least one situation where I didn’t like their performance: on wet snow, wet weather, wet everything, I had very wet pants at the end of the day. I understand these are difficult conditions for any garment, temps around freezing are cold enough to leave you chilled if you are wet and the dark side of Dryskin is it takes long to dry when it’s soaked. The warmth from the legs while active just wasn’t enough. Now, make this a multiday trip and you have a problem.

I wonder which could be a good solution for these conditions. Maybe wind pants like those Montane featherlights? Would they hold the humidity enough so the Dryskins stay just slightly wet? I don’t count on WP/B stuff to work well for the legs while active

Yep, those conditions are rough for Schoeller (and pretty much anything else). Which is why I will layer w/ a hardshell, if necessary. I find that body generated moisture is not a big issue in the legs when active. A pair w/ a zip fly or full side zips can work to vent , if that’s an issue. I use some gore-tex pants in the conditions you describe, Inaki, and am pretty comfortable. The Featherlights would be eventually defeated in these conditions. I do use them as primary leg protection in the Summer.

Polyester softshell materials might fair better. They would dry faster.

If you look carefully at the photos of Chris Townsend’s trip you will see that he sometimes uses Paramo Cascada pants in Scotland. Just like their jackets I think Paramo really has something that works beautifully in really cold, wet conditions. Even if you get wet the wash-in treatment (Paramo is owned by Nikwax, the waterproofing company) together with the “pump liner” that their garmets have actively dries you out (as opposed to just relying on wicking). From what I’ve read of many other users there are people who rave about the system and others who dislike it.

Personally my Cascada Jacket is the best rain jacket I’ve ever bought, though quite a bit heavier and bulkier than my Montane eVent jacket (then again because of its liner it eliminates carrying warm shirt). It is the best breathing and I’ve never been wet for long while wearing it, from soaked-in rain or from perspiration. Plus, because the material is so soft you can easily roll the sleeves way up and that, along with raising and lowering the zippers allows for really great venting options.

A lot of people say the Paramo rain gear is too hot most of the year. Personally I find that the garments don’t keep out the wind well and so I have to carry a thin wind-shedding layer (a windshirt is enough usually) to stay warm in the wind. (I have the same problem with the Montane Superfly eVent). All very strange, because I tend to run very warm when I hike.

The Cascada Pants must work in a very similar way to the Jacket and would probably be great for Scotland’s wonky wet weather (after all they were designed in Scotland). Because of their design you probably won’t need to bring any other insulating layer for your legs; they will work as your walking pants/ rainpants all in one. I’ve heard that with the fabric being so breathable water can seep through in the seat when you sit down on anything wet, but that it dries immediately afterwards.

I don’t have them yet, but I’m planning on getting the Cascada Pants and also their Mountain Shirt and their Cap. I’ve never found anything quite like Paramo gear. It’s hard to describe to people who have never tried it out because it just works differently. I’m surprised though that no one else has anything that works the same way. It just makes a lot of sense.