Two-hiking Pole Freestanding Tent Idea

Maybe BPL can structure this like the spreadsheet/gear list contest????????????

Here’s one idea — a teepee tent.

1. Round floor — with two pole pockets (at 0, 180)and two “anchors” for guylines (at 90, 270).

2. Set up two hiking poles fully extended by inserting one end in pole socket, and tying the other end where the poles meet at the top.

3. From the top, loop two guylines — insert the end of each guyline to the respective anchor at the floor — then tighten with plastic tensioner just enough to stabilize the two trekking poles.

4. Drape silnylon tent fly/wall and secure to floor — like one of those GoLite teepee tents.

5. Envision a zippable flap door — and mesh along the bottom perimeter where floor meets tent.

The height of the tent and the diameter of the floor will both be determined by the extended length of the trekking poles. Probably OK for solo use??? Get LONG collapsible poles and don’t expect a lot of headrooom. :)

Ben,

way to go. not too shabby at all. good thinking. how long can sectioned trekking poles extend (150cm, or more???). on an angle, still might get some reasonable headroom, not great, but still workable. what wall angle were you thinking of?

also, would also work for a single-wall pyramid, like the BD MegaLight, with 4 sides and much smaller? w/o using stakes, how do you keep the other sides down. to stabilize the poles, those internal guys need to be in tension – what’s holding them to the ground?

a small “hub” like used for the BA Seedhouse1 SL (and i think also on the MSR Hubba) with 2-4 sections on side, or just a short curved sectioned, shock-corded pole could, for very little weight maybe be used to increase peak height? the pole would basically function as an extender for the hiking poles. maybe their tips could fit right into the ends of this “extender”?

for most people an extender would be a must for fixed length CF trekking poles.

Hi Paul:

There’s going to be an inverse relationship between headroom (height) and floor length (diameter)! Either be prepared to crawl in and out, or curl up to sleep, or get longer poles for increased height and diameter!

I thought about hubs, short cross pole, and pole extenders, but they would violate the spirit of this exercise, correct???

It’s raining outside, so this is a good indoor cerebral exercise… but at the end of the day, I think I would forgo ‘freestanding’ and just open up the thing and tarp. :)

Interesting thread and design challenge but remember that there’s a reason why we have tripods and not duopods. The only way to make a tipi-style shelter stand up on its own is with at least 3 points of structural contact. Two trekking poles alone doesn’t get it done. Also, since there’s no inherent framing to maintain a circular perimeter, a round floor won’t work for this design (without thoroughly staking the perimeter). A square or rectangular floor works but, again, the design requires staking at all times. Lastly, max trekking pole length is typically 57”, a constraint that severely limits usable height/width geometries for “A-frame” construction.

Henry:

You are right about the round floor. In my scheme above, if the floor isn’t staked down (which violates the rules), tightening the guylines will simply raise up the floor — no freestanding.

Shucks. Back to drawing board…

HS,

not clear on why a sq. or rect. req. staking at all times. certainly, if the frame has only two legs. this is the point of your comment right? four “legs” & then no staking is necessarily required with a four-sided floor, right?

Paul,

If you want an integrated floor of a lightweight material(like silnylon), you need some way to tension it. Technically floor tensioning isn’t required but if you don’t do it you end up stressing the canopy and/or with a severely bunched floor. The idea I wasgetting at was to use the support structure as a floor tensioner. A 3-point structure is minimum so you would have 3 points to tie off and you can use that to get at least close to a square/rectangular floor. Technically it would be closer to a triangle but you could get reasonable tension on a four-sided figure with a bit of “float.”

Actually, if you’re willing to live with “float”, you could have a circular floor.

-H

Is this exercise limited to hiking poles for structure???

Or is it any potentially dual purpose item that is carried???

(I’m hinting at something here… :) )

any. be creative. what’s your idea?

Thought I’d put up a few of my sketches. Two are tongue-in-cheek, but the first one was serious.

This one utilizes a Pacific Outdoor Equipment Insul Mat Max-Thermo as the longitudinal structure for the tent; two inflatable air-sponsons on either end of the tent to tension the tent fabric, hold the Insul Mat down, give extra length to the tent, and act as a pillow for the head; an air sponson at the apex of the tent to hold the tips of the two hiking poles, tension the top of the tent fabric, and hold up the tent rain cap and vent; two hiking poles set to their maximum lengths (though lesser length can be used with more air in the air sponson) inside the tent and held in place at the vestibule with a length of strap attached to the silnylon floor; a triangular bugnet with zipper; a bugnet in the apex for ventilation; a vestibule of two triangular pieces held together by velcro, and a silnyln floor to which the Insul Mat is strapped.

These are self-explanatory, I hope. They work better in colder months when muscles no longer need exertion and infiltrated ice helps the limbs to act as additional, stiff supports.

Some initial sketches. I played with the idea of placing air sponsons at every corner to grip and hold the two hiking poles. I got my ideas from the way inflatable frame kayaks and folding kayaks with air sponsons work. Still have to work on a bunch of other ideas… but it’s time to get out for a hike today, so I’ll see everyone tomorrow!

Very Clever!

I see No. 2 as the perfect TWO-PERSON tent! The wife snoozes in her bag, while hubby props up the tent as shown.

OR, two buddies can take turns sleeping/propping.

My suggestion: Removeable internal pack frame or “break-down” external pack frame that can be used as part of the structure; most likely still requiring other items such as the aforementioned trekking poles or hiking staff to supplement unless you can reuse all vertical and cross struts.

What makes me think of this is Bill’s custom pack frame he had built. It’s crying out to be part of a shelter as well.

I have wanted to find a threaded rod small and light enough to connect two or more carbon arrow shafts with the normal arrow inserts; just haven’t gotten around to it. Most threaded rod is heavy steel; but I wonder if aluminum or Ti is available as threaded rod (I dont have taps and dies yet to make my own and I dont know if Ti can even be done this way as hard as it is).

Cut the shafts to a preferred length, make an ultralight pack around them, and you are in business. Dual purpose.

Granted, I dont want to add weight to a pack just to say I lightened my shelter; but sometimes it’s nice to have the additional carrying capacity of an internal frame for longer trips.

Just a thought.

I LOVE #3. Hilarious! Nice work, Miguel. Reminds me of my usual nights sleep pressed up against my very large dog after he creeps up between my wife and I about 2am and settles in for the night. I’m living proof that, yes, one can sleep on a 6″-wide surface, tetering on the edge of a 3′ cliff…

Shelter #1 is very clever–note additional contact points required for free-standing provided by matress. Is the “Pacific Outdoor Equipment Insul Mat Max-Thermo” really stiff enough to do the job?

-H

Maybe HS will begin making packs that incorporate the poles from his tarptents as pack frames …………

Miguel,

so, are you saying in pic #1 that you climb into a collapsed shelter, and then once laying down on the sleeping pad, you erect the trekking poles and the wt of your body on the sleeping pad keeps the poles erect?

very clever, indeed. might be a bit of a balancing act. what happens if you move around at night? doesn’t the pad need to be the precise length of the sleeper’s body?

what we probably need is a flat frame under the pad to provide some stiffness? perhaps the tensioning guylines attach to it? now this idea (your idea w/an under pad add’l frame = still your idea) would not conform to the original idea in the initial post in this Thread. however, it’s an “outside-the-box” kind of idea, and clever in its own right.

you sure are creative (and a good artist) – both the serious attempt and funny ones. i’m still chuckling at them (the two funny ones).

Miguel, I can see now why you get my sense of humor.
No 1 is great on paper but I doubt very much that it will work; well in fact it will not. As long as we give Henry something to work on, we can all be happy with some crazy ideas.
Franco

Franco,

>>”give Henry something to work on”

good point. Henry, Bill, or any other “Pro” with a creative mind might come up with an “outside-the-box” idea that would work – even if it didn’t conform exactly to the initial “challenge”.

Miguel, in his initial Post, accurately quoted me as saying “is such possible? i don’t think so”. i sure would like to be proven wrong.

Michael Freyman asked:
Q 1- I have wanted to find a threaded rod small and light enough to connect two or more carbon arrow shafts with the normal arrow inserts; just haven’t gotten around to it. Most threaded rod is heavy steel; but I wonder if aluminum or Ti is available as threaded rod (I dont have taps and dies yet to make my own and I dont know if Ti can even be done this way as hard as it is).

A1 – I use 1/8″ aluminum all thread but have to special order it. It is the same thread as the arrow inserts. It is used to connect my Arrow Shaft 2.8oz trekking poles, my Tripod and the Carbon Fiber tubes I use to pull my Pack/Sled. The Sled poles were made to come apart and be used on a winter tent I was making. that might work for your two hiking pole freestanding tent. The poles on my External Frame Pack will come off and have screw inserts in each end so they can be connected. My current frame only uses two carbon fiber tubes of 23.5″ long. Add thoes to my arrow shaft trekking poles at 50″ each (two pieces each pole also with screw inserts and you would have a lot of pole length to play with. I also carry the third leg of my arrow shaft tripod for another 50″ (2 sections also).

All connections are with the aluminum all thread.

so, are you saying in pic #1 that you climb into a collapsed shelter, and then once laying down on the sleeping pad, you erect the trekking poles and the wt of your body on the sleeping pad keeps the poles erect?

Not quite, Paul. The Insul Mat Max Thermo is an inflatable pad that is actually a three inch thick air mattress. It is 72″ long in its regular size and 78″ in its long size (which might be better than the regular for this exercise, but I only have the regular), with primaloft sandwiched just inside the top fabric. When inflated it has six longitudinal tubes that, when inflated as fully as your poor, hyperventilating lungs allow, actually provide quite a stiff structure. If you hold up the Insul Mat it maintains its shape and has quite good resistence to bending. Laterally it flops about, but when pushed down on the inside of the tent (the Insul Mat would have to be literally shoved into place), with the head and foot end airbags clamping down on the ends of the Insul Mat the Insul Mat should not move at all. In addition, straps from the tent’s silnylon floor would hold the Insul Mat firmly against the tent floor and the Insul Mat would effectively act as the tent’s stiff, longitudinal floor structure.

As Henry pointed out a third contact point is needed for the two-pole idea to work. I think the Insul Mat would provide this. He said, “–note additional contact points required for free-standing provided by matress. Is the “Pacific Outdoor Equipment Insul Mat Max-Thermo” really stiff enough to do the job?” I think so, Henry. I kept getting up and trying out the Insul Mat as I was working on the idea, trying to see if it would be workable. I also have a Grabner Holiday 3 Inflatable Kayak, which is 500 cm (5.5 yards) long and a folding kayak with sponsons, both of which gain their strength from longitudinal air sponsons, where I got the idea of using the air tubes of the Insul Mat. The insul Mat is not nearly as stiff as the inflatable Kayak, but it doesn’t need to be. The Insul Mat is only used for the tent fabric to hold its shape lengthwise and when the tent is lifted off the ground, not to fully support an occupant’s weight without the ground below. Even Henry’s Rainbow arch pole can’t do this.

Keep in mind that the tent fabric itself is acting in tension with the air mattress and the two poles, and is an integral part of the whole holding its shape (it is the tent fabric that is keeping the tent poles from sliding about). Plus the inflatable air bags (I’m thinking of using different-sized airtight drybags) at the head, foot, and apex of the tent (all held in place by velcro strips or 1/8″ elestic cord) give more length and height to the tent, while tensioning the tent fabric at the same time.

Set up would mean:

1) Setting down the tent body, unzipping the bug net.
2) Inflating the dry sacks, positioning them inside the tent body, and strapping them in.
3) Inflating the Insul Mat and then fitting it into the tent floor (thus tensioning the tent length-wise).
4) Standing the two hiking poles at maximum length in a V configuaration, tips up and pushed into the apex airbag (gives a headroom height of 100 cm… 40″… when are you Americans going to join the rest of the world with measurements??? What a pain to convert sizes all the time!!!… and a tent width of 140 cm… 56″), tying the ends of the poles into their corners. The pole setup inside would be very similar to Wanderlust Gear’s Nomad Lite

And that’s it! The tent should be freestanding and reasonably comfortable. I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t work. I think I may actually give a shot at making it. The only materials I need to buy is some silnylon.

I’ll try to come up with some better images to give you all a better idea about what I’m talking about. Here’s the latest sketch to give some idea how it looks:

Miguel,

thanks for the clarification. please prove me wrong! at the very least, you have the start of something which could be great. Nemo “broke” the mold with their air-tube skeleton designs (last year was it?).

is ’06 the year of Miguel? i can see it now, the A-1 (one person), A-2, etc. [A-1 or Arbo-1 or Arboleda-1).

how ’bout an air inflatable floor that doubles as a sleeping pad. Nemo patents might only cover an air-inflated support-frame/skeleton. now, that’s dbl-duty! you have more control over stiffness if you design the floor to be air inflatable (use a hand or foot-pump, like Nemo). now, you have to solely rely on POE’s pad’s stiffness (and the air pressure our weak lungs can muster up) – you might want more stiffness in your design?

i can see how your design might work. using just the POE pad, it might not be that stable in windy conditions – but that’s what stakes are for – and guylines if windy enough.

also, let’s change the challenge to “semi-freestanding”. that is, no stakes are needed to erect, but you might not be able to pick the shelter up, have it retain its erect shape, and move it to another location – like Franco can do with his HS Rainbow. some readustment might be necessary if the shelter is moved after erecting it in a different location.

since i really know nothing of materials, i don’t know the weight ramifications of a strong, somewhat puncture proof (especially on the bottom), air-inflated floor. plus the added few ounces for a lightweight hand/foot pump. even if it’s a 2-3lb shelter, it would still be very innovative. lightweight certainly isn’t the Nemo shelter’s strong suit.

go to it, man! you might be able to retire in a couple of years and just trek the world over!!

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the metric system – obviously, has many, many benefits to the “English” system of measurement. about 18-20yrs ago, i was working on a project with a engineer from a Canadian company. he told me how much the metric system was disliked in Canada (a lot could have transpired in the last 18-20 yrs however). people were not “fluent” in it then, and were constantly converting, either in their minds or with calculators, back to the “english” system. well, maybe today’s younger adults who were (?) brought up with 12yrs of schooling using the metric sytem might be fluent. the biggest obstacle to change is…namely “change” – we get comfortable with things the way they are – we are “creatures of habit”, as the saying goes.

i sure wish only one system of measurement was used. over the years, i sure would have saved a whole lot of money on mechanics tools for working on cars. i could have used those many dollars to buy backpacking gear instead!!

Paul, I used to be an architect in the States. And while I prefer the metric system in general, one of the things the Imperial system has going for it is its ability to be divided into halves, thirds, fourths, eights, sixteenths, and so on. A rancher I once spoke to told me that he found the Imperial system to work better when laying out fence posts on his land; he was able to switch the positions of the posts according to the divisions that could be gotten from the Imperial system. So, though the metric system is mostly universal, it doesn’t mean that it is always a better system.

The Nomad Lite used two poles… but it’s not made anymore… saddly. It’s not strictly freestanding because it has to be staked… but it’s a great design.

agreed…too bad ’bout the Nomad Lite. i might have liked to take one for a “test drive”. looked like an interesting design.