20 deg too drafty for quilt?

I have a 20f-ish quilt, and at coldest I slept fine with it at about 25f in a bivy. I’ve been cold when just using a tarp or an airy tarptent in above freezing conditions. So I think the bivy made quite a significant difference there, in blocking drafts, adding another layer, and importantly keeping the whole “package” together so that i didn’t create air gaps where cold air could leak in.

I don’t disagree with that sentiment.  My coldest-rated quilt is 20F and it works great at 30-40-45F.  I’d be leery of using it at 20F (just as I would using an X-degrees-F bag at X degrees F).  But if I had a 0F quilt?  I’d be leery of using it at 15F for the reasons stated – minor drafty air gaps would be pretty uncomfortable at those temps

I use my quilts down to 20*F so that is the cut off to me.  If I was expecting 20*F and thought it could get colder I’d take a bag.

I do find that I do better reducing drafts if I’ve been backpacking recently as there are some proficiency gains at least for me in turning over at night while minimizing drafts.

I have been caught a few times down to about 20F. I usually pack a R2.0 NightLite pad and an R3.9 Womans NeoAir. The quilt is a 20F Revelation long/wide. I use it for everything from spring to fall, though I have 3 other bags (0F, 10F, 40F.) While I agree that 20F is about my limit with the quilt, I have had it down to 18F according to thermometer. I simply wear a down jacket, long johns, pull the quilt over my head with just my nose/mouth are sticking out (I sleep on my side) and use both the NightLite and NeoAir under me. I do a bit of a burrito roll, too (kind’a a half roll left and right to pull the quilt next to me, then lay on the edge…closes off the gaps pretty well.)  This is about my limit for the quilt and the 18F was only because I had expected 24-28F but up in the hills it was about 6-10F colder.

I’ve taken a 0 degree EE Revelation to 5 degrees in the Smokies, no problem. Supplemented with a base layer, down sweater, down pants and an EE Hoodlum. My quilt is long/ wide, which probably helps with the drafts. In addition to supplemental clothes, the key for me is an insulated pad (Xtherm) and good head protection. I also have a Western Mountaineering vapor barrier but have not used it yet.

I’ve doubled up my 50d and 40d quilts and slept in mid-20’s before, but I was wearing a down coat, down pants, Cap-4 tops/bottoms, and at least R-6 underneath. I also used a silk mummy liner which covered the top of the quilts and under me, but not under my sleeping pad. I had the straps of my pads go through small holes in the quilt to connect under the pad.

I think that advice is generally sound especially if you don’t sleep in insulated pants and a jacket. However, I have used a quilt down to below zero temps with success if I’m sleeping next to someone and I’m wearing down pants, booties and jacket. The down clothing does a lot to mitigate the shock of super cold drafts. My 0 degree wide enigma quilt has 21 oz of down in it and only weighs 27 oz. For me, the extra down, extra width, and still lightweight make it a great shoulder season quilt in the rockies. I’m plenty warm in 10 and 15 degree weather and I like how light and compact it is. However I wouldn’t try to take a 20 degree quilt into the same temps even with extra cloths. 20 degree quilt is a great option for summer in the alpine, although my 30 degree enigma has been plenty for that too.

We’ve doubled our 2P quilt down to about 15 degF, no problems.  But we do use a 2P bivy sack as the quilt’s “draft stoppers” don’t work that well at low temperatures.  Our 2P bivy has a netting top, the main thing it does is eliminate side drafts.

The 2P bivy is also is handy for organizing stuff for the night, and we keep items that can’t freeze inside the bivy but just barely under the quilt (enough heat is trapped by the bivy that the items don’t need to be fully inside the quilt with us).

I agree with Skurka in general. I have test slept down to -25Fin dual quilts and spent one night at 0F. In general though, I think for most people once it gets much below freezing a bag is in order and while this may go against UL, I think a good bag and pad are worth the weight more often than not.

Perhaps slightly off topic, but runs parallel – has anyone had success with FF Tanager 20 for a year round bag?  Much/most of my hiking is around Mt. Pisgah in NC & evening temp range year around is 12 – 58 f degrees.  I’d love the warmth-to-weight on this.  Thanks.

I’ve slept down to 20 F in quilt

Skurka says high loft head insulation is needed – I have a 2.5 ounce apex balaclava (1.9 ounces) plus my fleece hat (1.4 ounces)

breathing into your mummy bag is probably not that good an idea – your mummy bag will tend to get wet

Maybe I sleep warmer than I thought but I’d never guess that from being cold sleeping in my house. Or maybe my bag, which I use as a quilt, is plenty wide? Had it down to 18 F at 11,000 in my tarp with just a thin beanie on my head but I did keep all my normal hiking clothes on and a fleece vest I believe. The problem I have is since I toss and turn a lot, the down shifts over to what would be the sides instead of staying on top of me, and that night was my breath freezing on the outside so almost the whole bag was covered in frost.

I’ve tested it to -2 F, but that was in my garage with an extra pad and puffy clothing and a fleece balaclava. I was actually quite comfy that night.

I agree with the original post.

I feel mixed.  I have used a double quilt system to 0F: a second generation Nunatuk Ghost Blanket (16oz 32F recommended),  a synthetic overquilt, my a PolarBuff + down baklava from DownWorks in Santa Cruz, vapor barrier clothing,  in a wind blocking shelter ( double, solid wall tent or a pyramid staked to the ground).

I have also used the Ghost with insulating clothing including the baklava, a MLD superlite DWR bivy down, in an open tarp or tarptent down to 15F.  Both systems worked and wasn’t significantly impacted by drafts.

That said, most winter trips I took a WM Versalite. There is something really comforting when climbing into a puffy sleeping bag than envelopes you at the end of the day.

–mark

Or maybe my bag, which I use as a quilt, is plenty wide?

I think this is one major factor. A lot of ultralight quilts go tight on width and length which might have more affect on warmth than stated through poor coverage and extra drafts. AS tucas makes this argument, at least.

Anecdotally I switched from an Apex 200 quilt where I was cold around 3-4c (37-40f), where the length only came up to my neck. I had thought this was fine as I work clothes + had a balaclava hood for cold nights.

I swapped to an apex 233 quilt from AS tucas, so only 16-17% more insulation, and was warm around -3c (25-26f). The biggest differences which account for at least a 6-7c  jump in warmth are that the AS Tucas quilt is longer, wider has a curved top (which supposedly creates less drafts around your neck), and has a permanently closed “3D footbox”.

The problem I have is since I toss and turn a lot, the down shifts over to what would be the sides instead of staying on top of me, and that night was my breath freezing on the outside so almost the whole bag was covered in frost.

Both of these issues have been positives of using Apex more than down now for me. I knew moisture would be less of an issue, but I didn’t realise how much i’d appreciate the simplicity of insulation that doesn’t migrate. Before someone says it, I do know baffle design can help manage this with down.

Both of these issues have been positives of using Apex more than down now for me. I knew moisture would be less of an issue, but I didn’t realise how much i’d appreciate the simplicity of insulation that doesn’t migrate.

Certainly true I’d imagine. I’ve never considered using synthetic since it doesn’t last anywhere near as long, weighs more and takes more space unless you really compress it, which then makes the first point happen even quicker. Too bad we can’t have a perfect insulation for all conditions – LOL.

For sure. I started using it as I couldn’t justify the cost of high end down and apex was cheap to MYOG something that was relatively high performance. I also had concerns about the ethics of even responsibly sourced down (being a vegeterian, even down that’s a byproduct of the meat industry felt uneasy). Of course, to the environmentalist in me, the relatively short life cycle of synthetics is pretty hard to swallow too.

But it’s lasted better than expected, but I wouldn’t have any way to measure that accurately.

Nunatak mentioned a few years ago experimenting with a synethetic insulation that behaved somewhere in between down and apex (in both construction, which was meant to mimic the shape of down and performance). Lasted longer and compressed better, but with the moisture management of synthetics. I believe it still weighed more, and was more comparable to 650 fill down (apex, for its weight, might be more like 450?)

I guess since Nunatak has abandoned doing synthetics all together, then it was a dud.

Synthetics are getting better, in terms of retaining loft over long periods of time.

I’m still very happy with my now years-old Patagonia Micro Puff Hoody and Enlightened Equipment Torrid Jacket, but – caveat – yes, I baby them and never compress them too much. Both have 80%+ of their original loft, each after more than 100+ days of use, and each with more than a half dozen washings on a gentle machine wash/dry cycle.

I’ve been experimenting with this a fair bit over the last few years.

I have little doubt that weight-for-weight a full bag is significantly more efficient in the cold, particularly designs that allow for a good seal around the shoulders and neck. It’s simple common sense. Even a good quilt will be leaking warm air by comparison.

The only exception might be a quilt used inside of a small bivy bag, as mentioned above, which should help trap some of the wasted heat.

A number of people have mentioned that their cold-weather quilts are generously sized, at which point I suspect that any weight advantages are moot. Even more so when you account for the padded clothing that people report using to combat draughts.

So I really can’t understand the case for quilts in cold weather, unless for some reason you just can’t get comfortable with the restrictions of a mummy bag.

Personally I sleep just fine in a mummy and find quilts too draughty. But as with all sleep-related questions, in the end it’s down to personal preferences and trade-offs.

So I really can’t understand the case for quilts in cold weather, unless for some reason you just can’t get comfortable with the restrictions of a mummy bag.

I guess that is the case for me. Back when I used my bag as a bag, it was very frustrating to roll over but not have the bag follow me so that my face would still be in the opening. I’d end up breathing inside of the hood, which clearly isn’t desired. Never found a solution until I read about someone else just using their bag as a quilt so I’ve done it ever since and find it more comfortable overall as well.

I’ve actually gone back to a classic sleeping bag. For me, when temps are below freezing my sleep is significantly affected by drafts. I do toss and turn a lot, and use a tarp most of the time, so the bag has to do the work of cutting drafts for me. It can fully unzip for quilt use in warmer weather. I fully committed and sold my quilt here a week or so ago :)

I do think it’s possible to be comfortable in a quilt at 20F, but to be so I think it has to be used in a well thought out combination of clothing layers, bivy, pad, VBL, etc… As mentioned above, the weight savings starts to get pretty minimal at that point. But of course weight is not the only consideration.

Have an EE revaluation quilt rated to -6c I’m freezing in it under 5c and the down layers come out.
However in my Rab neutrino 400 rated to -1c I’m comfortable at the same temperatures.

EE has just shy of 500g of 850fp and the Rab has 400g of 800fb.

Apologies on the metric but you get the idea. A lesser rated bag for me is still warmer than a quilt.

cheers

I don’t really have draft problems and recently spent several nights well  below 20f in a 20f quilt.  As mentioned earlier, the key is enough width for quilt and pad to maintain a reliable seal.   I do not attach my quilt to the pad but do employ shock cord to help keep things gathered at the back.

Everyone is different though, and generally speaking, I would agree with the advice for the vast majority to move to a bag at that point.  I also rarely cowboy camp anymore so that certainly helps.

I am new to quilts and only just acquired a Katabatic 15F Sawatch. I recently had the opportunity to take it down to 26 degrees, and was impressed with the Katabatic system of using both restraining bands to maintain the bottom open width in combination with the outer clips to hold down the bag and to keep out drafts. I was warmer than I would have been in my WM 10F Versalite. Certainly I am sure that the tighter dimensions of the Katabatic helped; I swim around in the large Versalite too much. I also found the Katabatic neck collar in combination with a down balaclava does hold in neck/head heat a bit better than the Versalite. As I am a very cold sleeper I always assume that I will carry both a down puffy as well as down pants if I expect to go below lower 20’s, so perhaps drafts will not be an issue for me and my plan of modulating clothing allows me some nice versatility with one bag.

Besides bivies and down clothing, I wonder if others have successfully used add-on strategies for taking their quilts lower that specifically address the draft issue, like using bag liners, or anything else?