windshirt and rainjacket, redundant?

I carried a windshirt for a couple of trips….not anymore, and I just use my rainjacket or other clothing combinations. As far as I'm concerned the windshirt, although light, just added to my load but did not add enough flexibility or warmth to justify being brought. Durability was also an issue since many do not recommend being worn under pack straps. Since I'm frequently offtrail or climbing on granite, I was always afraid it would get trashed – another reason why I didn't wear it…..and no longer bring it.

Joseph. My personal preference depends on my shelter:

Shelter: Poncho/Tarp
I bring a windshirt. Leave the rainjacket at home.

Shelter: Tent
I bring rainjacket. Leave the windshirt at home.

Bottom line: If I am bringing a rain jacket because of the type of shelter I am using, I'll leave my windshirt at home.

There is a recent discusssion of this topic here:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=15891

My wind shirt is my long sleeve shirt. It is also used as part of my sleep system. It breathes much, much better than my rain jacket.

No rainjacket is breathable in real-life backpacking even though the manufacturers market them as such. The only time they are breathable is when sitting around in camp not moving. But when motat'n up a long uphill stretch you'll sweat like a pig, ending up wetter that if you hiked in the rain without the darn jacket. Hence I make much use of my breathable, water repellent windshirt and rely on my shelter – a Gatewood Cape – for rain protection. Either that or a small umberella that I frequently carry. If it is raining at the end of the day when I set up camp, then the windshirt is sufficiently water repellent for the 1.5 minutes it takes to pitch the Gatewood.

Joseph, I agree with you. I hike mostly in Texas or the Northern Rockies, where sustained rain is usually predictable. If it's not likely, I use my Wild Things EPIC windshirt (which has a hood) as emergency rain gear and leave a rain jacket at home. EPIC is much more waterproof than its manufacturer claims. If rain is likely,or if it's colder, I take a shell (usually eVENT fabric) and leave the wind shirt behind. I might take both if I were on a long hike in the Cascades or New England in rainy season.

The most breathable wind jacket is going to be more breathable than the most breathable rain jacket!

Having said the above, I never ever bring both wind jacket and rain jacket on the same trip! On a day hike where the trail head is just a few hours away — I just bring my wind jacket. If I know it will rain, I stay home. OTOH, on multiple day trips — I opt for the rain jacket instead and the wind jacket stays home.

To me, the "window" where temp is so low and winds so cold that I want to put on a jacket even when actively hiking — and yet, not low enough or cold enough for my pretty-darn-breathable MontBell rain jacket — well, that's a very, very narrow window. Certainly not anything that I need to "fine tune" so much to warrant hauling two different jackets.

I agree with Ben's comment on the small "window" between windshirt and hard shell jacket. I bring a Golite Ether when I anticipate prolonged, windy conditions with reliably little chance of precipitation- in practice, this has turned out to be day hikes at high elevations. I've never been quite satisfied when using the Ether simply as an insulation layer over, say, a LS merino tshirt. I know the windshirt is very lightweight for the insulation it provides, but I find a light fleece layer of some sort much more comfortable in how it regulates moisture and avoids the clamminess of the windshirt, even if that fleece layer is heavier than the windshirt. Also, I can stay pretty comfortable in fleece even when it gets somewhat wet.

Now, perhaps if I am bringing a fleece layer anyway, the windshirt + fleece layer + merino layer would provide similar comfort and protection from precipitation to the hard shell (in my case, an OR Celestial Paclite Jacket)- particularly since the fleece layer provides a substantial buffer even in the situation where the windshirt wets out. No direct experience with this combo in heavy rain conditions, though.

Another variable to consider is the expense of hardshell vs. windshirt, as well as care and feeding requirements. Like many others, I have been eying an eVent shell for some time now, but the expense is substantial, at least 3-4 times that of my Ether. Both the Ether and an eVent shell, of course, require care to maintain the DWR, but in conditions when you really NEED the hard shell, you want it to be at 100%. So is there an argument for windshirt and hardshell based on these factors- use the windshirt as a more sacrificial layer, where wear and tear doesn't come with as much expense, and save the eVent for times when it is really needed?

I pretty much do the same thing as Ben. I use a windshirt or rain jacket for both wind protection and bug protection. I'm rarely in that window where I find a rain jacket too clammy but a wind shirt would be just right. So, I save myself a few ounced (on a backpack trip) by leaving the windshirt at home. I can understand why someone would figure the two or three ounces are worth it, though. I can also understand why someone would use a windshirt with a very light poncho (in many cases the poncho + windshirt is lighter than the rain jacket). I'm not sure who makes the lightest poncho. I think I'll start another thread for that.

All depends on the area you hike in. The Highlands of Scotland are mostly tree-less and exposed. The weather is very unpredictable. I always carry both, and the windshirt is probably my most used bit of kit.

Mike — what rain jacket do you use?

I have found that the DriDucks suits substitute well for wind protection as well as hard rain without moisture buildup.

I'm the same as Vick. Well, mine are Frogg Toggs (heavier).

It's why I asked Mike up above.

Treeless and exposed — that's Driducks country! :)

"Mike — what rain jacket do you use?"

It depends on the activity, time of year etc. I've got a few.
In 'wet' winter conditions, just around freezing, it's usually a Paramo Aspira smock. This is the only time i don't bring a windshirt, as the Aspira is so breathable.
For 'dry' winter use its a Crux Flak smock, made from e-Vent.

For most of the year i carry a Haglofs LIM Ultimate G/tex paclite jacket.

I don't think the DriDucks would be durable enough. Most of my hiking is over mountains, and i like to get up close and personal with the rock.:)

Interesting thread.

I think so much depends on the conditions and the compromises you are willing to make depending on the length of the hike, and how much you are willing to carry.

I experimented a lot this winter on many day hikes. I walked in snow at 1000m (3300') in an ICEBREAKER 200 and a Golite Ether jacket and was fine. The same conditions in my ID Rain Jacket with a synthetic shirt (Golite C Thru) were fine too, but less breathable going up hill, of course. In rain at slightly warmer temperatures than the snow hikes, the ID rain jacket worked better with a synthetic base layer – so mixing and matching layer combinations can suit the conditions too. When I stopped, I needed to put on an insulating layer real quick.

With the wind shirt, I just kept going and my body heat kept me dry- with the rain jacket, I stopped more often to vent and cool off- so here it was a question of hiking style suiting the garment combination. There's no aganda when I hike, I tend to potter along anyway, so I don't mind stopping and smelling the roses and cooling off.

This summer on multi day hikes at altidude (2000- 2800m) following the ridgeline (HRP Route in the Pyrenees), I'm going to take the ID rain jacket/ synthetic shirt combo, and leave the windshirt at home, and I'm going to experiment with an umbrella for those showery days when before I'd use a poncho. I found the poncho pretty much impossible to keep on me, or my pack in high winds in exposed areas, and got fed up with wet arms.

I did the winter hikes expecting to encounter the worst conditions I might encounter in summer at altitude, and found, with either combo, I could maintain a good comfort level. In summer, of course, I'll be using the C Thru shirt, so it makes sense to just take the ID rain jacket for top of the ridge cool days, and heavy rains.

If you are interested, I used nylon shorts covered by Montane featherlite pants and gaiters in all conditions from snow to heavy rain and this worked great and dried quickly as the rain let off.

wind shirt + poncho = 400g (14oz)
ID Rain jacket + umbrella = 450g (16oz)
same same but different.

I hope this information helps.

cheers
fred

I vote either/or. I wear a wind shirt under a poncho in the summer, and my marmot precip over a montbell thermawrap (insulated and wind resistant} in the winter. My wife loves her windshirt an always brings it. She'll layer it with everything. I overheat quickly, she's always chilly.

If you have predictable weather and all on-trail walking then you may find carrying just a rainjacket adequate. In unpredictable weather and terrain, a windshirt is not only often the most comfortable wind protection to wear, but it saves getting your expensive rainjacket shredded on a thorny bush. Context is everything!

"but it saves getting your expensive rainjacket shredded on a thorny bush."

My hikes aren't quite "Man v. Nature" extreme — and within that context, I do select gear that will do the job without fuss. I wouldn't buy an expensive rain jacket that will get shredded on a thorny bush.

I think the subjective part is how much we want to "fine tune" our comfort while hiking. As mentioned, a good wind jacket is going to be more breathable than a good rain jacket. Nothing wrong with carrying two separate jackets. But to me, the window of need is narrow — and even within that narrow window — the rain jacket 'discomfort' can be mitigated to a great extent by venting or walking a bit slower, etc. YMMV of course.

"I like to get up close and personal with the rock."

OK, Mike, you win. I am not going there. :)

there's certainly some functional overlap but I wouldn't say they're redundant. Waterproof garments are not as breathable as windproof ones, there's a big difference here. Windproof stuff is both lighter and more rugged. The functional gap is big enough for me to find different uses for both and not consider them redundant.

In cool/windy conditions, a windshirt goes on inmediatly and it's comfortable. With a rain jacket, I keep pushing back the time to wear it and I don't feel as comfortable, neither before nor after I put it on.

I always carry both and it seems everytime I leave either one at home, I miss it eventually (except for maybe very short hikes in predictable conditions).

I carry both, and use the windshirt as my second shirt.
I do like to have a backup shirt and something to wear other than my rainjacket when I am washing and drying my primary hiking shirt.

If someone can point me to a viable, dual use second shirt that weighs less than my 3 oz windshirt, I'm all ears.

And I do sometimes prefer it for light wind and rain protection over my DriDucks.

> I carry both, and use the windshirt as my second shirt

I do the same. It's actually not only about windshirt vs. rain jacket but about a whole integrated system. I find I build a better system when I take both things.