Winter Gear List

My original lighthouse weighted 1340 grams (2.954 lbs )

I modified mine, with fibraplex carbon poles, BMW titanium stakes, aircore guy lines, a BMW spinsack M, and cutting the labels
final weight is 1109grams (2.44 lbs)

(its possible make lighter cutting the mesh pockets and the vestibule attachment)

Dang, when is BMW going to sell these I want one

the question is when BMW is going to UPDATE their site?

Last Ryan commented on it, he said they were expected for Spring release.

good, I was about to buy a custom G6 with a hipbelt, 2.2oz fabric, and mesh side pockets for long distance/thru hiking.

but this pack looks an awful lot like the pack I am dreaming about, mesh sde pockets would make it complete.

Bob,

do you have any more info on it, like fabric, volume, weight or special features?

Er, getting back to my original question about winter gear lists that people might be able to recommend… I’d really appreciate any other advice on that. If anyone has any winter gear lists that they could point me to that would be very helpful.

I also have some other questions, about footwear and VB. It seems some of the UL walkers venture into the winter mountains wearing running shoes and supplement them with overboots and such… Does anyone find this a viable option (I’ve got Neos Overboots), especially if crampons are going to be necessary? (I’ve read of some people using bolts pounded into the soles of their shoes).

People seem to push VB quite a lot here, though Garrett and Alexandria Conover, in their book “A Snow Walker’s Companion”, deplore its clamminess and fussiness. The “AMC Guide to Winter Camping” doesn’t even mention it. I certainly have no idea about who is wrong and right and haven’t had enough winter experience to judge for myself… but should I be trying VB systems in winter when I’m still just beginning to learn about going “lighter” weight in alpine regions? I would still be fine without resorting to VB for short (2 to 4 days) trips, won’t I?

There are some people here with real experience in this. Would love to hear your opinions and advice.

Thanks.

Ryan,

Checkout this thread. There are some pictures there. I think is basically about the size and design of the G6 (maybe a little bigger) but in some sort of ripstop fabric, a hip belt, water bottle pockets, and a shaped carbon fiber removeable frame. I originionally thought like you that it should have mesh pockets, but I think they made a good decision going with the fabric ones. They will be much more durable and have a metal gromet drain hole in the bottom to let out any water that might collect in the pocket.

Miguel, are you thinking of using a down insulated sleeping bag? For a night or 2, you could get away w/ not having a VB liner. Beyond that, you begin the risk of degradation of your insulation from moisture absorbtion— from body generated moisture as well as from external sources. It’s a downhill slope. You certainly would be using VB at the appropriate temperature levels ( lower than -5 degrees C). The use of a VB allows me to use bag
to it’s rated temperature or even below for extended Winter trips w/o that slow but steady slide of bag efficiency. Synthetic bags are not immune to losing loft, either. Just takes longer.

VB socks are a much used item by Arctic travellers and Alaskan climbers. You can layer wool socks over them for additional warmth and not have to carry much in the way of extra pairs. Something like latex gloves used under your other glove/mitt layers will contribute mightily to keeping your hands and digits warm.

I think preserving your sleeping bag and your hands and feet, the most important areas to use Vapor Barriers.

I’m waiting for more choices being available for VB
shirts/jackets and pants. I think these will be the way to go in the future for both comfort and to reduce winter kit weight.

VB’s have a history of controversy, true. In part due to people using them in warmer Winter temperatures where they indeed become very uncomfortable for many people.

As for footwear, in such temperatures, my experience has mostly been w/ heavier plastic boots dictated by skiing and alpine climbing considerations. I have not joined the Winter UL revolution yet, in this department. I am intrigued by
the use of trailrunners w/ overboots. There are a new generation of light flexible crampons that can be used w/ them. Don’t think of using them on any real technical terrain, though.

Good suggestion on the gloves for VB. However, opt for nitrile gloves instead of latex gloves for use as VB. Varying length of contact with latex, depending upon the individual, can result in an anaphylactic reaction.

Well, I have this thing for latex….;-)>
True, some people exhibit sensitivities. Nitrile works.

Anon… good advice. I’m severely allergic to latex, so I will take a look at nitrile.

Kevin, I’ve already bought the RBH Design’s Vapr Thrm Mitts a year ago (I’ll try the nitrile gloves regardless, just to see if the system gets lighter that way), and just ordered two pairs of RBH Designs VB socks to go with my boots. Now I have to find a source for VB top and bottom, since RBH Designs doesn’t yet offer them. Any suggestions?

I’m curious, though. How do the Inuit and Siberians manage get along without VB technology? I once saw a Siberian dogsledding journey documentary in which the Siberian guide slept outside on the sled in a blizzard in just his fur parka (it came down to below his knees) and he woke up with a big smile on his face! What are they doing that we could learn from?

PS. Yes Kevin I will be using a Marmot Pinnacle bag, stuffed with down, no WB shell (so I will use my BMV Vapr Bivy as a cover if necessary).

I’ll put up my winter gear list as soon as I’ve figured some of these initial questions out and then ask for people’s criticisms. Probably much easier to comment on than this haphazard questioning I’m doing.

Thanks Bob G for the link, this pack looks like the best tru hiking option for me, it is exactly what I want, G6 style, spectra ripstop, side pockets, pad pocket, and a removable frame I will probably never use. I just want to know the weight w/o the frame

thanks again

Basically, Inuit clothing generally consists of two layers of garments on the torso, arms, legs, and hands, and up to four layers on the feet. The layers overlap to limit air exchange. The inner layer often has the fur inside, and the outer layer often has the fur outside. Keep in mind that they are wearing the same stuff that used to keep its original owners warm. Also, their body fat content tends to be somewhat higher than that of a typical Thru-hiker – at least by the time the Thru-hiker has completed the Thru-hike. While leather does breathe, with the limited air exchange, I wonder if there is any VB effect from the clothing? Seal skin is preferred for some layers of the footwear because it is quite waterproof.

The Inuit are not only cold adapted physiologically and psychologically, they (or at least the traditional Inuit) have or had access to animal base products ( not just furs) that have some amazing virtues that were specifically used for specific parts of their clothing . We could learn much. We have learned some—the concept of Parkas and Anoraks came from them, I believe.

Miguel, there are only 2 sources that I know who make VBL tops and bottoms—Stephenson and Dancing Light Gear. In a pinch, non-breathable hard shells can be used( not comfortable to sleep in and you would want them dry). I’m holding out for the RBH clothing (when and if it comes out). The others are rather dated in concept and materials.

I would reccommend a Vapor Barrier Liner for your bag, as a cheap, effective option–it’s what I have used for years. Several People make them or you could fashion one from sil-nylon or even a lighter fabric. I made mine, it’s just a long bag.
But, VBL’s are not as versatile as VB clothing because not only can you wear the latter when active but you can wear additional layers over the clothing. With the VBL, you would (if necessary) drape layers between the VBL and the Bag. It works, but isn’t elegant.

try this:

http://trailquest.net/dlgcgwrainsuit.html

or this:
http://www.warmlite.com/vb_shirt.htm

the best feature of this is the fuzzy interior for comfort and mopping up some of the inevitable body moisture when really active.

Miguel said:
“Now I have to find a source for VB top and bottom, since RBH Designs doesn’t yet offer them. Any suggestions?”

Miguel, You know Ryan has a RBH VB Shirt/Pants to test on his winter challenge hike. I am sure if they work well we will be seeing somethng like them for sale here soon.

I think Ryan mentioned a new NANO, VB product line

Hello. Did you have chance to compare the VBL fabric Stephenson uses (Fuzzy Stuff) to the RBH fabric? I am looking to buy VBL socks first, and later thinking about shirt and pants as replacement for VBL bag. I am wondering about the weight of the fabric used by Stephenson and RBH. Probably I should give them a call and ask.

You might also want to look into Integral Designs VB socks – only $20. No complaints about craftmanship. I have them, but don’t use them for their intended cold weather purposes, so can’t comment. I use them with trail runners in the inevitable New England wet weather. They keep my feet dry – at least from outside moisture. Can’t compare to the others you mentioned as I haven’t seen them.

The fuzzy stuff is the only VB that is comfortable next to my body.

Shirt = 7.8 oz.
Pants = 4.5 oz.

The fuzzy stuff is supposed to be very good based upon other posts in several previous Threads on the subject.

Before fuzzy stuff, there was a type of fishnet underwear which was worn under some types of VB clothing. I’ve still got two pairs of long tops & two pairs of long bottoms/johns packed away – never cared for it that much, but that might just be me. It was meant to keep the VB layer from making contact with the skin. Can’t compare it to the fuzzy stuff since i’ve never used it. Not sure of the availability of the fishnets anymore. Haven’t weighed mine, but its got to be heavier than the fuzzy stuff (which i’m guessing is a pretty light, thin layer) even before absorbing some sweat.

PJ writes:

>> …there was a type of fishnet underwear which was worn under some types of VB clothing.

Wiggys has fishnet underwear. Never used it, but I might have to try it just for style points. ;-)

Cheers,

-Mike

The wiggy’s fishnet underwear is absolute junk. Strong words, but it is true. The shirt alone weighs nearly a pound, made of heavy nylon mesh more suitable for making cargo nets than for clothing. Thick nylon like this absorbs water just like cotton. Heavy nylon mesh like this is also damned uncomfortable, IMO.

Quality polyprolene fishnet underwear is made by Brynje.com. I bought the Brynje top from Moosejaw.com long ago, but they no longer sell it. Do a google search for resellers.

Performance-wise, Brynje fishnet is miraculous. It works just as the theory predicts: the holes let the perspiration evaporate on your skin, thereby cooling you when you are overheating (and hence perspiring), but the holes also keep you warm when you are cool, since air is the best insulator. Regardless of how much you perspire, the polyproylene will not absorb much moisture, so evaporative chilling when you stop exercising is not a problem. (Polyprolene absorbs less moisture than any other breathable fabric.)

The big problem I found with the Brynje fishnet is that it begins to stink after a while and then is very hard to get clean again. Precisely because polyproylene won’t absorb water, it also won’t allow wash water to get into the fabric and thereby remove body oils. So the body oils just go rancid. Polyester has a similar problem, to a lesser extent, since polyester will absorb some water.

Nylon absorbs enough water that it is easy to clean. Of course, this absorbtion is why nylon is not a great base layer, performance-wise. I value cleanliness over performance, and so my base layer (and only layer for temperatures above 50F) for many years has been supplex nylon shirt and pants. Silk performs similarly to nylon, while being much more fragile. Can’t relly recommend silk for anything outdoors.

My opinion is that merino wool is overall the best choice for a base layer for use with vapor barrier, unless you don’t care about stinking, in which case polypropylene is best. Wool absorbs huge amounts of water without the fabric structure collapsing. Therefore: (1) wool is very easy to wash, because the water and detergent gets into the fabric and removes the body oils; (2) wool keeps you dry and comfortable until such time as you completely soak the underwear. Provided you have enough intelligence to remove insulation as soon as you begin perspiring (and don’t fall into a lake), this won’t be a problem. Keeping the skin dry is important to prevent funguses and trench foot. (3) wool dries from the inside out (namely, because the structure doesn’t collapse when damp–this is what distinguishes wool from cotton and rayon, and also down for that matter), thus avoiding evaporative chilling problems when you stop exerting yourself.

Merino wool fishnet would be even better than ordinary wool underwear, but no one makes this, as far as I know. The best available alternative is the thinnest possible wool base layer.

Note again that the primary purpose of vapor barrier is NOT to add warmth by preventing evaporative cooling of insensible perspiration (that is a bonus feature that is mainly of interest at extreme temperatures, like -50F), but rather to prevent the insulation from being ruined due to condensation. Provided you have some way of drying out your insulation daily, then vapor barrier is not really needed.