msr capillary stove system

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Matt

Rx. Thanks.
Roger

[Roger Caffin]

> The military wants things that are sturdy and safe. It is probably a lot more rugged and
> heavier than if they were going for the backpacking market.

'Wants' and 'needs' are not the same thing. My argument is that they need to rethink. Wrong mind-set.

By way of example: at the start of the first Gulf War, the military did not have enough MIL-rated GPS receivers. In desperation they bought a stack of COTS ones: ordinary consumer off-the-shelf units. Strangely, as far as I know, the consumer ones worked just as well as the MIL_spec ones. Apparently the 'consumers' are just as rough on their gear as the military … :-)

But it will never happen. Mind-set.

Cheers

[Hikin’ Jim]

Hi, Roger,

Any impressions or thoughts based on the PDF? Always interested in people's insights.

HJ

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jim

> Any impressions or thoughts
Well … I did note two things:
* The product has been stuck in development for 4+ years now. To me, that suggests some serious technical problems in production which may be insurmountable.
* The military have started a quest for another stove, which suggests they have given up on the capillary stove.

You draw your own conclusions.

I would add that kero stoves stink in practical use. Well, actually, it's my wife who complained most about the smell: she endured the smell for several years. I guess soldiers don't care?

Cheers
A happy canister stove user

[Hikin’ Jim]

> * The military have started a quest for another stove, which suggests they have given up on the capillary stove.

Was that in the article or did you hear that the army is searching for another stove somewhere else? If it was in the article, I missed it.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Someone was selling a prototype MSR Capillary Stove on ebay. I grabbed these photos which show the stove in its current form. It looks different than photos from several years ago.

Click here for a Slide show of MSR Capillary Stove

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jim

Another article. My thanks to someone on the Forum for the URL.
See http://www.dodsbir.net/SITIS/archives_display_topic.asp?Bookmark=30533.

They state: 'Even the latest development, a new JP-8 stove based on Capillary Force Vaporizer (CFV) technology (see reference #2), that sets new standards for size, weight, and ease of use, leaves room for improvement.'

Cheers

[Hikin’ Jim]

Thanks, Roger,

A very interesting article. That article is from 2007. I wonder if there are any more recent updates.

Jim

Addendum: A flameless heater. Now that sounds interesting indeed. Maybe a paradigm shift would get us something really lightweight? Their requirements sound pretty ambitious, but who knows? Maybe they'll really come up with a breakthrough.

They do sound rather down on the CFV stove, don't they?

[K Sawyer]

Here is a link to the company supplying the ceramic capillary pumps (wicks), Vapore:
http://www.vapore.com/outdoor_stoves-lighting.html

I've been following the development of this tech since before 2002, (and handled a few AWESOME prototypes – think unpressurized propane power blowtorch that you can enclose with one hand) so I'd really love to see the stoves on sale!

[Hikin’ Jim]

Unfortunately, I haven't heard or seen anything new regarding the capillary stove in quite some time. Out of curiousity, how did you get your hands on one (or multiple)?

One wonders if JP8 is part of the problem. I know the military isn't interested in "white gas", but I wonder if the capillary stoves run better on a cleaner, lighter fuel. Heck, if the military can't use 'em, run 'em by us! :)

[K Sawyer]

Yeah, I check every year or two, hoping to see more. I actually did an internship there for a summer many years ago, but don't know anyone there anymore. The prototypes were so awesome, and if I recall correctly they could use pretty much any kind of fuel. Kerosene, JP8, white gas, diesel, etc. I think an issue though may have been that dirty fuel might eventually over time clog the capillary pump, but if I recall correctly they had a bunch running continuously for weeks without problem. Also, I think if you superheat them you can burn out the clogs? That was forever ago, though, so who knows what's happened since. They had an extremely simple stove prototype (that was so small a large handed person could completely contain it in their hands) in addition to the torches I referred to, but there was no windscreen or anything. And such high power! All totally awesome stuff. It's amazing how much work it is to get such an awesome product to market.

[d k]

I, too, have been watching and waiting since the news first came out. I had been told that they likely would have something at this summer's OR show, but I didn't see anything about it in anyone's writeups. Sigh. It sounds like such a good thing, even with occasional clogging. I'm so jealous of those who've gotten a prototype!

[Theron Rohr]

That comment earlier on this thread was interesting about the Svea 123. Are there any new stoves that use self pressurization? In theory I would have thought that would be lighter and cheaper than any pump stove. The Svea is really old so I'm sure you could make it lighter nowadays…

[Rick Dreher]

It's an interesting thought. I'm not aware of any "new" self-pressurized stove models, as remote fuel liquid and canister models seem to rule the day. A big shortcoming of self-pressurized stoves is their relatively short burn time compared to remote-tank stoves. That, and you're always toting two fuel tanks, at a minimum.

I wonder how much self-pressurization design relies on the thermal mass of the relatively heavy brass fuel tank on stoves like the Svea and Optimus models? I'm guessing it helps regulate how quickly and evenly the tank heats up. A thin metal tank doesn't sound so safe to me. Not to mention if you've never seen one of those babies pop its safety pressure valve you haven't experienced one of the more thrilling in-camp experiences.

A capillary design at least side-steps the pressured fuel supply entirely.

Cheers,

Rick

[Theron Rohr]

You're probably right Rick. I bet the high conductivity and mass of brass is a factor in the whole thing working right.

[Hikin’ Jim]

K Sawyer said:
The prototypes were so awesome, and if I recall correctly they could use pretty much any kind of fuel.

I wonder what the hold up is exactly. I've heard from people that the prototypes work fairly well. I've really not heard what exactly is the thing holding them back from manufacturing a "production" version. I have heard something about the stoves leaking fuel; perhaps that's it.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Rick Dreher said:
It's an interesting thought. I'm not aware of any "new" self-pressurized stove models, as remote fuel liquid and canister models seem to rule the day. A big shortcoming of self-pressurized stoves is their relatively short burn time compared to remote-tank stoves. That, and you're always toting two fuel tanks, at a minimum

Well, for a short trip (one night out only and only two hot meals — supper on day one and breakfast on day 2) you can get by with just the tank on a Svea 123 (I've done it). For longer trips you do need to take some extra fuel, but since the fuel container doesn't have to be strong (you're not pumping it or anything), you can just use the plain garden variety bottled water bottle; not too heavy.

Rick Dreher said:
I wonder how much self-pressurization design relies on the thermal mass of the relatively heavy brass fuel tank on stoves like the Svea and Optimus models? I'm guessing it helps regulate how quickly and evenly the tank heats up. A thin metal tank doesn't sound so safe to me.

I bet aluminum, steel, or better still titanium could be made to work. You need to have something that will transfer heat from the flame to the tank, causing the self pressurization. If you look at a Svea 123 (or an Optimus 80 for that matter), they actually have a heat shield on them. In other words the problem is more one of limiting the heat rather than conducting enough heat.

I speculate that the Svea/Primus/Optimus type self pressurizing stoves fell out of favor because they're a bit of a trick to light in cold wx. One has to either bring a small bottle of alcohol or some other similar priming fuel OR one has to bring an eyedropper or something to take fuel out of the cold tank and put it into the priming pan. Being unpressurized (until it heats up), fuel doesn't just start flowing when you open the valve. That fussyness combined with the very real danger of overheating the tank and that pressure relief valve letting go in (typically) a fiery eruption I think may have caused the stoves to go somewhat out of general favor.

HOWEVER, it should be noted that the Svea 123 (R version) is still in production to this very day. It's the only pack stove from the 60's that's still in production. Other stoves from that era, the Optimus 8R, the Optimus 80, the Optimus 111, the Primus 71, etc. are all gone.

[M Benson]

I've got one of these same stoves, got in while it was in testing up in Alaska. It has never even been fired up and includes everything show in the above links. Anyone interested in purchasing it from me please let me know. E-mail me @ [email protected].

Thanks,
M

[Roger Caffin]

Let's take a big step backwards and look at this whole problem from a basics physics perspective.

You have to get a liquid fuel to turn into a gas before it can burn. Liquid fuel does NOT burn, period. This requires a bit more than what you can get from a very low vapour pressure.

JP8 is very close to kero. Kero boils at quite a high temperature – over 100 C, although this is a bit misleading. It is a rough mixture of hydrocarbons with a range of boiling points (but none of them are low!).

The military would love a magic layer which turns the liquid kero into a vapour at field temperatures without pressure and without a lot of applied heat. Basic physics tells us this is extremely unlikely to happen, regardless of the DoD wishes.

My speculative opinion, based on never having handled one of the stoves but having a fair knowledge of hydrocarbon liquids/fuels and basic physics, is that the DoD is chasing moonbeams, and that MSR have been enjoying the $$ ride.

A biased opinion maybe, but I can sell you a great line in perpetual motion machines…

Cheers

[Andrew Ruppe]

hey this was just listed on ebay for those of you who might be interested-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MSR-US-Army-Capillary-Force-Vaporizer-CFV-Stove-vapore-jet-prototype-/251025576162?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a724a50e2

[USA Duane Hall]

A few of us stovies met last Labor Day weekend in OR and met a couple MSR reps who were invited, cool seeing a version of this in action and the then prototype MicroRocket and the Universal stove explained demoed. I believe this wasn't too viable of an option and the govment went with another model from MSR.
Duane

[Hikin’ Jim]

Interesting. They appear from time-to-time on eBay but are pretty rare. I keep meaning to write a review on them…

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[USA Duane Hall]

HJ, you'll have to actually fire yours up then. That's gotta be tearing you up. :)
Duane

[Eric Blumensaadt]

So our Jetboil pots have "Flux Rings" heh?
How about a "Flux Capacitor" stove? :o)

[Hikin’ Jim]

HJ, you'll have to actually fire yours up then. That's gotta be tearing you up. :)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

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