Aquamira LIQUID drops vs. Aquamira TABLETS

> as they say, pick your poison…
They do say that, don't they. :)

Yeah, I've seen you're other posts on your dual system. So, the whole ensemble weighs 2 oz? Bleach, bottle, filter, hoses, etc? That's pretty light. That would be a savings of 10 oz over the Sweetwater, which would be, well, sweet. :)

I'd still love to get a better understanding of Concentration Time (CT) if anyone has a good layman's definition.

Then there is always the SteriPen, which is relatively light and fast and works on all 3 organisms, but doesn't remove particles or improve taste.

Then again, if there are many particles in the water a filter can be near useless as it may clog so much.

I'm still waiting on that dehydrated water – just open & add air…

I'd love to replace my lil' bottle of chlorine with Steripen — just a lot quicker and cooler all around. But alas, I'm pretty devoted to my narrow mouth Platy's — and my understanding is that Steripens work poorly with those. Sigh.

Ben, what's the total weight, if you don't mind my asking, of your etire water treatment set up?

Jim:

Aquamira Frontier Pro – 2 oz.
Full dropper bottle of chlorine – 0.4 oz. ***

Total weight – 2.4 oz.

*** counted 166 drops = enough to treat 27 quarts of water — assuming a 6 drops per quart.

Ben:

Re your comment on 3/30/09: "Then suck water through the AquaMira Frontier Pro filter…It can also be spliced into your hydration tube as an in-line filter."

I've read from various sources that it is very difficult/tiring/impractical to just suck; that in order to get an appreciable amount, you MUST also squeeze the container to force the water through.

What has been your "trail experience" with ease/ability to suck through the Frontier Pro?

Are you also using the squeeze method, or are you able to get good enough flow just by inverting your platy – is gravity enough to force the water through? (on the trail, not asking about camp).

>> Evan…My question is, of course, for personal knowledge, but hopefully many will gain. If this is deviating too far from the original question & I'm guilty of hijacking the thread, please accept my apology…hijack not intended.

Adding in the Frontier Pro and positioning the bladder upside down, sucking water only requires a little bit of additional effort — and still an easy thing to do. No need to squeeze to assist. I used this hiking up Mt. Whitney with no problems at all.

At camp, I usually just screw the Frontier Pro directly onto my Platy.

positioning the bladder upside down

Ben… how can the platty be upside down… how does the water get to up to the hose outlet, or am I all confused?

Dan:

I position the FP at the end of my hydration system — strapping it onto my pack's shoulder strap — and using its bite valve to drink.

1L bladder (inserted upside down into my pack's side pocket) –> hydration tube –> FP filter. Inserting the filled bladder upside down means the weight of the water will press downward and out — making it easy to suck the water through the filter. The bite valve will prevent water from flowing out when you are not sucking on it.

A second option is to use the FP as an inline filter by "splicing" into your hydration tubing:

Bladder (as described above) –> tubing –> FP –> tubing –> bite valve.

Hope this helps.

> Ben… how can the platty be upside down… how does the water get to up to the hose outlet, or am I all confused?

Just a matter of what each of you consider to be "upside down", but in my experience, with a Platy, if you squeeze the air out, not only does it not slosh around, it makes no noticeable difference which way is down.

If I use one of my old style platy bags, the cap is up.
If I use one of my newer ones, the cap is *usually* down, but this depends on which pack I use also.

Ed. for clarity.

Kent,

I just got the Frontier Pro. In my initial at-home use, with the FP attached to the end of my Platypus hose, I found no difference at all in the effort necessary to suck water through the filter as opposed to through a standard bite valve. As long as the excess air has been squeezed/sucked out of the bladder, it doesn't seem to matter what position it is in; up, down, sideways.

This is my first post on BPL (on two threads)! I read the BPL store info on Aquamira drops, and also many other posts, as well as received a favorable recommendation from a store. However, I was taken aback by the fact that the product specifically does not make claims for efficacy and by the fact that REI does not carry it. So I have tried to do some independent investigation.

The following page is from the CDC (Center for Disease Control) and deals with the efficacy of various water purification methods. It is worth reading. http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/backcountry_water_treatment.html. It states that chlorine dioxide is very effective against bacteria, viruses and Giardia, but only somewhat effective against Cryptosporidium.

However this page does not provide any data to say how long a treatment by chlorine dioxide should take place. Relevant information can be found on the following EPA page: http://www.epa.gov//safewater/mdbp/pdf/alter/chapt_4.pdf

There are charts on that pdf that show the results for various pathogens at various concentration of chlorine dioxide at various temperatures and for various times. "CT" seems to mean concentration multiplied by time. To interpret the results from Aquamira, we need to know the concentration of chlorine dioxide. The 30 milliliter bottle of part A has a 2% chlorine dioxide composition, so that is about 0.6 ml. My research suggests that this solution may weigh just slightly more than water, so each bottle contains.6 gram or 600 milligrams of chlorine dioxide. The bottle is said to hold enough for treatment of (up to) 120 liters. However, I counted the drops in my Part A bottle: 690; that would only be enough for just under 100 liters if the recommended dose of 7 drops is used. Each dose calculates at 6 milligrams per liter (quart). So looking at the tables on the EPA page, it appears that the efficacy of chlorine doxide, even with very cold water, is excellent for everything except Cryptosporidium, where full effectiveness may require a several hour wait for cold water.

But if you look at the info on Katadyn chloride dioxide tablets at REI, it works relatively rapidly (15 or 30 minutes) for everything except cryptosporidium, which requires a 4 hour treatment for clear water. The packaging information states that it produces a solution of chloride dioxide of 4 ppm (parts per million), which would be approximately 4 milligrams per liter. Aquamira tablets have the same specification, i.e. 4 ppm chlorine dioxide and a 4 hour wait. Given that the liquid drops may be 50% stronger and that they can probably become active in water faster than can a solid tablet, the drops are likely to work faster. On the other hand, if cryptosporidium is a worry and the water is cold, a wait of 3 to 4 hours may be required. Since the Aquamira drop directions call for only a 15 or 30 minute wait period, this may be why they make no water treatment claims and have no EPA certification for water treatment.

David:

Last I looked, the AM tablets have 3 times the active ingredients (chlorine dioxide) than the liquids!

1. AM liquids — being weaker, instructions cover ONLY bacteria.

2. AM tablets — being more concentrated — can handle protozoa cysts (giardi, crypto, etc.). as well — but take anywhere from 30 minutes (water at room temp) all the way to 4 hours (water just above freezing).

I know there've been plenty of AM liquid users who use the product habitually without problems. But following AM's instructions, the tablets are the stronger, more concentrated, more effective choice.

But truth be told, if protozoa is truly a concern in your water sources, then I would look elsewhere. Mountain streams are frequently cold and on the trail, no one wants to wait 4 hours for water.

i may be a little late in this dicussion but wanted to show Dan something i witnessed years ago with a trail buddy – the frontier screwed directly to a "dirty" platy . then, jason klass made a video of the same general idea a few months later: http://www.youtube.com/user/jasonklass?blend=6&ob=4#p/u/61/wSYWoplv_Uo

Get Katadyn Micropur tablets. They are the choice of the U.S. military for their potency.

Eric:

Micropur came to market with the tablets earlier than AquaMira. But I believe the two products (tablets) are actually identical — both made in Spain — and very possibly by the same factory.

Ben,

I read over a year ago that the Aqua Mira tabs were 1/2 the strength of Micropur. Maybe they've changed that.

I have no solid info on the issue, but have recently read two articles giving me pause.

The first is says "With the introduction of chlorine dioxide droplets or tablets to the market, now just about every little organism that causes sickness can be killed. The drawback is that required treatment time for cryptosporidium is 4 hours!" ( http://www.backpacking-guide.com/water-filter-purifier-reviews.html )

Second I read up on cryptosporidium. "It affects the intestines of mammals and is typically an acute short-term infection. It is spread through the fecal-oral route, often through contaminated water;[1] the main symptom is self-limiting diarrhea in people with intact immune systems. In immunocompromised individuals, such as AIDS patients, the symptoms are particularly severe and often fatal. Cryptosporidium is the organism most commonly isolated in HIV positive patients presenting with diarrhea. Treatment is symptomatic, with fluid rehydration, electrolyte correction and management of any pain. Despite not being identified until 1976, it is one of the most common waterborne diseases and is found worldwide." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptosporidiosis )

The same backpacking-guide article cites some filters which catch cryptosporidium.

Any one know more about this issue?

Couple of thoughts:

1. ONLY the solid tablets contain sufficient concentration of chlorine dioxide to treat protozoa cysts (crypto, giardia, etc.) — and yes, it can take between 30 minutes to a full 4 hours of treatment time — the colder the water, the longer the time needed.

2. AquaMira liquids have just 1/3 the concentration of chlorine dioxide (feel free to read the labels on both). Read the AM liquids instructions and they mention ONLY treatment against bacteria — NOT protozoa cysts. EPA regulations.

In talking to an AM customer rep, she said that folks can use the liquids to achieve the same effect as the solid tablets — by quadrupling dosage. Don't know why tripling isn't good enough, but y'all can do the math.

Finally, I know numerous have reported they didn't get sick at all using AM liquids. But that's not following AM directions. Also, we all know of hikers who don't ever treat their water and didn't get sick. But neither is really a proof of anything…

Steripen Adventurer.

If you're serious about killing the bugs, you'll zap them with this. Take backup tablets for incredibly murky water or battery failure, sure, but nothing beats drinking chlorine-free water in the wild, zapped to be perfectly sterile.

"In talking to an AM customer rep, she said that folks can use the liquids to achieve the same effect as the solid tablets — by quadrupling dosage."

That customer representative sure deserves points from management for fostering sales of Aqua Mira.

–B.G.–

This is quite a simple theory and one that as an 3rd year environemental engineer I can explain however I dont have the formulas for chlorine dioxide solution however I have tried to explain for a typical chlorine solution as shown bellow. If you understand the theory, then the only difference would be number changes as the result of a differing chenmical reaction due to the addition to aqueous solution.

CT is an expression defining the nature of biologial inactivity such that:
CT = (0.9847C^0.1758)(pH^2.7519)(temp^-0.1467)
where C = concentration
T = time
ph = -log[h+]
temp = temperature in degrees celcius

This relationship allows you to predict the CT required for a 3-log reduction in giardia cysts, if you have the concentration, pH, and water temperature.

NOTE: log reductions are defined as 1-log = 90%, 2-log = 99%, 3-log = 99.9%, 4-log =99.99% and so on

Typically the EPA removes Giardia to a 3-log and cryptosporidium to a 2-log, I have a table of figures for required CT of chlorine dioxide at varying water temperatures as outlined by the US EPA.

GIARDIA
Temp 0.5 5 10 15 20 25
ClO2 CT 63 26 23 19 15 11

CRYPTOSPORIDIUM
Temp 0.5 5 10 15 20 25
ClO2 CT 1275 858 553 357 232 150

Using the above tables you should be able to determine a dose and time that suits your situation and removes these microorganisms, when using Clorine Dioxide. If you are interested in any other disinfectants CT's to relate ozone has the lowest acording to my material with CT's approximately 30 times lower.

@Nate: Nope. Remember, with UV you're not killing them; you're only mutating the organisms DNA to the point that it can't replicate, and then you're ingesting it live. Ingesting severely mutated bacteria, viruses, and protozoa FTW!!!

edit: clarification

@Ben… you said you use bleach only and then use the fp filter… and you do this to save money…

i've read somewhere here that household bleach degrades and it's not as effective as it was when the container was first opened…

i still like the idea of the FP filter and from your posts and the post where shows the video of Jason showing the gravity setup… that's what i'll do…

Just to give my opinion on this matter… many people using drops, or tablets, just wait enough (15 to 30 mins) to get drinking water… i wonder if they would have gotten sick even if they did not treat their water…

I'll just be on the safe side and get the tables and then filter using the FP filter…

question on this setup though? how long does teh filter last?

Roberto:

I don’t worry about the freshness of my chlorine bleach supply because it gets used and replenished regularly in my household. Stored in a cool, dark place — the chlorine efficacy should last 6 months (warmer temps can shorten this to just 3 months). Avoid buying in gargantuan gallon jugs to prevent the stuff from getting ‘stale’.

If you rarely use bleach and you’re worried that a bottle will just sit forever — then consider buying chlorine in tablet form at any pool supply store. Click here to read more. Still cheap as heck and not too much of a hassle really — and a lot better than getting fleeced $18 for a measly 20 chlorine dioxide tablets.