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backpack, external or internal frame?
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Feb 22, 2009 at 2:02 pm #1479821
Well, I created a thread in Chaff regardless: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=18989&skip_to_post=147449#147449
Feb 22, 2009 at 2:02 pm #1479822Jed,
Agreed on how good REI's attitude is. As to what should be, how about:
* REI is responsible for, and stands unconditionally behind, its actions and the products it sells. If any of those is faulty, REI absolutely will make good.
* The customer should accept responsibility for their own actions and decisions. The customer should not expect REI to compensate them for the customer's mistakes and judgment errors. The fact that REI *will* take something back does not make it *right* for the customer to take advantage of that.
* In some cases, REI may find it appropriate to go beyond its basic responsibilities. I suspect this is especially true with inexperienced customers. Perhaps that was, or should have been, the case with your friend's boots. But the customer should not depend on this.
* As you said, this does open the company up to exploitative customers. As long as that is at a low enough level, it may be tolerable — life is not always fair. The customer returning the kayak he bent around a rock sounds like a gross abuse of the REI policy.
* The question then becomes "What is exploitative"? For example, (to me) the idea that multiple days on the trail is a legitimate part of one's decision-making process is clearly exploitative.
–MV
Feb 22, 2009 at 2:05 pm #1479823"To question the company's stance on the subject is to question the company's judgment to serve its owners and attract new members."
FWIW: I do not question the management; I question those who would abuse their generous policy.
— MV
Feb 22, 2009 at 2:32 pm #1479831I don't think you have to worry about REI. You are maybe mixing up the ethics of yesteryear with modern business. The Mom & Pop shops are pretty much gone. If anything you should be irriated at REI for having such a generous policy because of it's affect on what small businesses are left. I am sure it is cheaper for REI to have a generous return policy rather than a policy where they make everyone 'try a pack before buying kind' of policy, or a policy of 'you buy this and it yours'. People empty their wallets there at a rate that totally erases any effect the errant loser imposes on them. Fortunately, most people are good. When things are returned, there is always something to learn from it. REI has learned that a generous return policy accelerates the rate at which people shovel money at them. I prefer to shop at the smaller shops like Feathered Friends and Marmot, Second Ascent…….
Feb 22, 2009 at 2:39 pm #1479833Never tried the Luxury Light but for trail use (IE not bushbashing/scrambling) it makes a lot of sense to me if a sweaty back is your problem.. I have corresponded with Bruce making it plain that I was not a customer, just exchanging some ideas, nice guy.
Nick
That line "service/knowledge" is not what it used to be is not correct . Again that is used in my trade too (photographic) , I can tell you that my junior sales people now know more than I did when almost 30 years ago I was the shop manager.
Keep in mind that 30 years ago I had about 2 dozen cameras to sell, now a good shop has over 200 between compacts/DSLRs and camcorders.
Same for REI, I am pretty sure that their product range is a lot more extensive than it used to be.
What happens is that a customer as he acquires knowledge, IE from venturing into a shop the first time to ending up looking at products on the net for hours, forgets what he did not know. IE at the start the salesman seemed to be well informed, now he knows less than you do.
The same happens if you spend a few weeks looking up all the available info on an obscure disease, you will know more about it than your GP ….
To put it another way , as you get older , your policeman looks younger.
FrancoFeb 22, 2009 at 3:00 pm #1479841I use the LuxuryLite frame to hold my GoLite gust. Not the *lightest* pack, but it feels lighter since there is no weight on my shoulders. I had to anchor the hipbelt though as it was not suited to bush-bashing and boulder hopping. Now I'm very happy with it.
Feb 22, 2009 at 3:37 pm #1479853Rpump,
Do you have the LL hook? How did you anchor it?Feb 22, 2009 at 4:16 pm #1479859"To put it another way , as you get older , your policeman looks younger."
You are probably right, in a lot of ways.
I still buy stuff from REI; after doing my research. The dividends are nice. But normally, I can get a much better deal from other Internet retailers and not have to pay sales tax. My REI member number has 6 digits, so I have been with them a long time. Actually their retail stores are becoming becoming more of a clothing botique these days.
Had an interesting REI experinece last December. My wife decided that we needed to spend two weeks in Las Vegas to visit her relatives. At the last minute I decided to take some gear and do a 4 day trip in the middle of our visit. No time to plan on exactly where, or go through my check list carefully. When I got ready to go, there were a couple items I needed. Ran over to the Vegas REI store and… they didn't have a scale. Salesperson looked at me incredibly, :)
Hmmm….
Earlier in that month I took my college age son on a trip, as he is now interested in backpacking. As a Christmas present, I set him up with a complete set of gear. Bought most of it online from various places. He drove down from Central California, and we met at the Rancho Cucamonga REI store to fit some boots. The sales guy was outstanding. While helping us, and while my boy was wandering around the store trying the boots, I listened to him help other customers. Very sharp guy. And he does a lot of hiking and climbing, so he knows his gear.
Then I went over to another part of the store to get a double-walled Ti cup, so my kid could enjoy his hot chocolate. The guy working that department did not know what I was talking about. He did find a single wall cup for us. After he left us, I found a cup that had "REI Double-wall Mug" plainly printed on it.
– caveat emptor
Feb 22, 2009 at 4:53 pm #1479865Dennis, yes I have the hook. It would require a photo to explain the attachment…it involves some velcro on the hipbelt strap of the Gust….that mates with the velcro on the LL hipbelt. It stops the frame from sliding around and unhooking, but still allows a great range of motion (and stops the hipbelt from blowing away when you take the pack off, like happened twice to me before I made the modification).
Feb 23, 2009 at 5:22 am #1480004thanks for the response guys.
I went to Bass Pro Shop this weekend. THey are the only local store that would have packs, and they didn't have much. I tried a external frame verses a internal frame. To me, the external frame seemed to fit nicer. However, the internal frame seemed to fit higher (but it was a huge sack, 6000 CI I believe). Not much selection so a good comparsion was limited
Other pro's on the internal frame I read about was it hugs better making hiking through dense vegation better. And of course lighter.
I'm really leaning towards an external frame though. Here are my thoughts, tell me if I'm wrong.
1) ventaliation. Its not so much the sweaty back I'm worried about as much as just being hot. There are alot of trails here in the panhandle, and its hot and humid here. You can loose a great deal of water just standing outside. So ventaliation seems to be important. I'm weighting this pro for the external very high.
2) Weight. Yes, this is important. But I'm down grading this for hte time being. I want to hike with my son (7). So we won't be doing long walks. They will be shorter and easier. Probaly famous last words, but it sounds like packs are something you go through a lot. So as he expands his range I'll probably look into upgrading. But for now I'm resigned to the fact I'm going to have a heavy load regardless. I will have to tote his stuff plus some extra things a 7 yr old will need. Good light, decent food, full tent, water, games, etc.
3) dense forests, climbs, etc. I'm throwing this pro for the internal packs out. Again, with my son we will be doing easy walks. And I don't think the local trails are that dense anyway.
Feb 23, 2009 at 6:20 am #1480010Got a chuckle from that. A few years ago I stopped in the Santa Rosa (California) store to replace a pair of boots that had self-destructed the week before, on the Lost Coast. The salesman (boy) said I had made the right choice because "All the local firemen wear that one."
I mentioned this to the store manager and he told said "I hire the best that apply for the jobs, and that man is always on time and works hard.". He asked about my backpacking experience, and offered me a job on the spot.
Feb 23, 2009 at 10:32 am #1480063Rob,
I do a lot of hot weather hiking. Here is a list of the packs I own and how I use them:
Gregory Whitney 95 – long winter trips with lots of snow when I need to carry tent, warm gear, snow shoes, etc. I love this pack. I sleep very cold, and need lots of warm stuff.
Mountainsmith Frostfire – was my main pack for the past 20+ years.
ULA Conduit – has replaced my Frostfire as my main pack, and required with some new UL gear. I could do a very long hike in summer with this pack. Probably could do the PCT, since I have the right gear now.
Kelty Serac (external) – used in hot desert when I need to carry more than 2 gallons of water.
Deuter Futura Pro 42 (internal frame, mesh back) – used in hot desert when I need to carry 1 – 2 gallons of water.
REI Venturi 30 (internal frame, mesh back) – used in hot desert when I need to carry up to 1 gallon of water on day hikes.
Next purchases —
If ULA still made the Amp, I might buy it for most day hikes, but I don't like the thin shoulder straps. I will get something similar this summer.
ULA Ohm or something similar, for longer trips in cold weather. With a change of gear, it might even do me in winter. I still need to do some research.
Bottom line is that no single pack will universally fit all our needs. When you hike with small kids, you are going to carry a lot more gear, and you are going to stay on easy trails, and you are not going to do a lot of mileage, so an external does make sense.
When my kids were little, I took the Kelty. I needed to carry more weight and hike shorter distances. When I hiked alone, I took the Mountainsmith. Hey, it is great for the equipment manufacturers.
Feb 24, 2009 at 11:07 am #1480350I just got back from a long weekend trip. One pack I used (don't ask) was an old Gerry "internal," with two aluminum stays shaped in an upside-down "V," and 4 horizontally zippered pockets. The stays are completely exposed. The hipbelt is a piece of webbing. There are no load lifters. It was marvelously comfortable and kinda nicely compartmentalized.
EDIT: Forgot to mention, even with all those zippers and old-time heavy fabric (500D PU coated nylon?), leather patches and all–the pack weighs 2# 1oz.
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