Youthful Posters

If we made an intentional effort to treat everyone as they ought to be treated then whether they are a minor or not would be irrelevant.

I'm not a minor. And with every new year of age I celebrate, I find more and more mentors.

Our younger forum members will find mentors of all flavors here. Some will caution them, others will let'em fly, wise ones will provide a balance of both.

If you are a minor and want to spend the night in your backyard without a sleeping bag when it's 32 degrees, drop me a line and let me know how it goes, and we'll commiserate! Maybe your mom and my wife should be talking to each other for moral support.

Heck, I've done it. And ummm…I wasn't even a minor (ahem).

I mean, it is the backyard, right? A warm bed and mom's cocoa is only like, 15 feet away.

I still have to tell my wife that I'm out there, she still hollers out the window to make sure I'm still alive at 3 am, and she still respects my passion to do stupid things like this.

> If we made an intentional effort to treat everyone as they ought to be treated
Then we would have all the do-gooders and thought police and politically correct wowsers screaming down on our heads!
But life might be more 'interesting'…

Go for it, anyone! (but leave yourself an out somewhere.)

Cheers

This should sum it all up…

"I just think we need to be aware not only do minors post, but they can lurk since almost all of our forum is public. I would really just like to see a little awareness. All in all there is no large issue. You seem to be a rather bright guy, but some other young man reading your post might not be."

"Just to let yal' know, I would never actually try the bivy thing out except in summer with a realistic backup and bailout(I hope my parents would't lock me out, lol)

-Evan"

The specific example was not meant to be the "issue". Now my concern for our awareness of our responsibilty has been turned into "stop being so uptight." I apologize if I did not make my point. Drop the 32 degrees without a sleeping bag…you get cold you go inside. My point was not to discourage the experience, but to encourage us to be aware those who read our words. I think it is too easy to become disconnected from the words we type. That was all. I'm done.

Evan,

I agree that you're a good guy. In fact something that you and Ryan said caused me to rethink my comment,

"But, youth can be, well… stupid."

I have friends who have been carrying 30, 40 and 50 pound packs around in the woods for over 30 years. After I read and reread "Lightweight Backpacking and Camping" these "friends" of mine called me crazy and said I was stupid for going out for 3 days with a 15 pound pack or less. The fact is that the book and the people on this website changed and made my life better.

Just think, IF Ryan Jordan had gotten that kind of criticism and LISTENED to it, we wouldn't have this website, this forum and some of us might NEVER have discovered the kind of adventure and fun we're all having. So, I apologize for being so heavy using the word "stupid." I just got worried for a young man I don't even know and, as Jonathan mentioned, I became "disconnected" from the words I was typing.

So, Evan, just be safe. And, if you find a way for me to cut another couple of pounds from my pack weight by not needing a sleeping bag at 32 deg F, by all means let me know! PLEASE, let me know! Again, I'm sorry for being so heavy. I can tell by the way you've handled the heat you've gotten in this thread that you're both intelligent and mature. Keep having fun and keep reminding me that I need to remember to embrace the kid within me. Cheers.

Certainly this is true in many cases, as our national problem with obesity suggests. However, that is not true in all cases. The body can heal itself but it can suffer from disease that is no fault of the afflicted. Polio once ravaged millions. It was later largely eradicated by the development of a vaccine by Dr. Jonas Salk.

It could be argued that the development of penicillin ushered in the era of modern medicine. Since then, issues that would have once crippled or killed us are now treated as routine matters. The vaccinations we received as children have done more to increase average lifespans around the world than does clean living. And perhaps that is the problem – with the component of chance being largely removed from equation, we consider it "normal" to grow up without the specter of disease or malady reaching into our lives. It wasn't always that way.

At the risk of completely hijacking this thread, I would so welcome in our country (for those of you in the USA) an honest and frank discussion regarding health care. I don't have any answers, but certainly the subject merits discussions free of political smears based upon your positions on the issues.

Dirk

Hey Edude…

Hats off to your mom!
Much respect for those that take the time to do this.

You are truly blessed.

Dirk, for what its worth I have never had any vaccinations blame my parents they were hippies. Nature has its way. It would be great if we could all live forever but we cant. You need look no further than the American Indians. They have always had healthcare paid for by your taxes they also love tax free and recieve money from both thier and our governmets. They have the highest death suicide and depression rates of any culture in any first world counrty. I personally know of Indians with more than 20 drunk driving convictions but do you think they are behind bars NO. I know I live with them and witness thier pathetic lives every day. socialism has never worked and it never will. This is America you can have anything you want but it must be earned. BTW I am part Indian and was functionaly illiterate when I graduated from high school and a college drop out. I have not nor will I ever ask for a handout. If you live in America there is no reson you cant afford to support yourself. :) Ali

Ali –

I appreciate your perspective. I am not suggesting free "handouts" are a solution to anything. Capitalism is successful precisely because it appeals to our primal yearnings for self-determination. As I am sure you can attest, capitalism is also problematic for the very same reasons. The events of the past year should illustrate what happens when people allow greed to rule their decision-making.

On health care, I would suggest that a frank and open discussion is necessary. I would like to hear from those who support and oppose government-sponsored health care. I would hope that national policy regarding health care could be discussed in a civilized manner with respect given to all sides of the issue. What I object to is that often, even raising the discussion prompts accusations and recriminations.

My experiences with many Native American tribes in the area does echo your experience. Drugs, alcohol and chronic unemployment are real, substantive issues faced by these populations. Does government assistance feed these problems? My gut says "yes" but I am sure socialists would offer a better explanation.

But I don't want to confuse the issue of federal or state assistance programs with the health care debate. I am merely suggesting that we study the issues involved and figure out if there is a better system than what is currently in place, which clearly doesn't work so well.

Finally, I enjoyed your website very much. I wonder, do you plan to get any immunizations between now and the time you take your trip? How about recommended shots for the places you visit?

Dirk

Ali, you will only live as long as your particular DNA will allow you to live. Be thankful. There are thousands of innocent children with cancer that will not live through the year.

If you live in a first world country there is no reason you should not receive affordable healthcare. It sounds like you've lived a blessed life as far as personal health goes, which is great but I wonder what your perspective would be had it been different.

Dirk, firt off I'm sorry. I was not writing that post directly to you. I had just read you recent post had had your name in my head. You raise a good question about vacinations. I have traveled extensivly throughout cental america have not had any to this point. I will consider what the local risks and immagration laws are with each region we sail into and decide at that point. For example when we sail up the Amazon Malaria could be an issue. From here to Austrailia we wont be doing anything special for ourselfs but by law there is a whole list of things our dogs must have. Back to the point I was responding to many posts here and should have not used your name. There was nothing directy or indirectly aimed at you. Agian I was wrong. Ali

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Please stay on topic here, (lol) guys and gals!

Thanks to all for taking the time to give me sound advice.

-Evan

I didn't think you were accusing me of anything. I am not angry and there is no need to apologize. I was just interested in the topic we were discussing. Certainly, my mid-thread hijack probably didn't help matters because you were responding to a variety of posters in your response.

I certainly look forward to hearing more about your trip around the world. A powerless sailboat is a particularly interesting test. I gleaned from the website that you live in the Pacific Northwest, and if you have spent anytime in the Puget Sound, you must be familiar with the variable 2-mph winds that makes sailing at times, uh, "a challenge."

I don't know much about cross-oceanic sailing voyages. How much does the lack of a motor impede a schedule or make it difficult to get into a port? Even in a small boat, trying to get into a slip can be daunting without power. How do you manage?

If there is anyone who owes an apology here, it's for me hijacking the threat, Evan. I am sorry for drifting off-topic.

I admire your want to test the bounds of utlralight backpacking, but would concur with those who ask you to be careful.

Dirk

The first thing is that we are on no schedule so time doesnt really matter. We are building a 14' sculling oar that will help with moving the boat short distances in calm weather. The whole engine issue is a big one with us. We are not doing it to make a point or because we are tree huggers (we are) but basically we are trying to make our boat as safe and simple as we can live with. Next week we are installing a small motor mount so we can get through Suez and Pamama with a borrowed outboard. If it really comes down to it we can add a small outboard for close quarters maneuvering. When i bought my first boat at the age of 18 I was too poor to have a motor so I did without, Its a great feeling completeing a passage only using the wind. Other than that we have chosen a very small boat with great sailing characteristics and big light air sails. We can sail in almost any conditions. If we are completely becalmed we will just wait for wind. Feel free to come for a sail anytime. Ali

Socialism, capitalism, health care…just details. The more you put your attention on something the more important it becomes, and sometimes its very interesting (like lightweight backpacking!). Life is working its course on this planet, from single celled organisms to multi-cellular self reflecting beings, we were born from "love" and we will return to it. Youth is beautiful because the mind has not yet been conditioned. Some minds can recognize this conditioning and learn to channel it in a way that breeds understanding, love, and compassion. I get irked when I hear "adults" telling "kids" what to do (not too much of this going on here) without them believing that it is a two way street. When i teach kids about basic addition I am learning from them simulataneously how to keep that curious spark about life in my eye that I see in them everyday. Our current society has deemed people 18 or over adults. This is necessary I suppose but must be taken for what it is. I'd argue there are very few adults on the planet, myself most definitely included. May I suggest that adulthood is someone who is accountable for everything that goes on in their life? This includes thing that happen to you that may seem out of your control. The two things that we can control are attitude and attention. If you change your attitude about something, it completely changes that something. See everything as good and that is what it is! We can perform miracles within the laboratory of our own consciousness! We are the forefront of life on this planet, what a joy and experience. Keep posting!

I think there is little to fear in having minors on this site. First it must be considered that common sense is not necessarily absent from a minor. Nor will the vast majority of minors who have sufficient backpacking experience to be interested in this site be without supervision. I think it is important to consider that most of those on this forum have been raised in a risk adverse society and this results in certain irrational fears.

Ali and the other anti-universal healthcare advocate in this thread epitomize the primary problem healthcare faces today. A healthcare network is only financially feasible when enough low-risk (young and healthy) people join to offset the risks of higher risk (old and infirm) people. This is how all insurance works. When the young and healthy bail (and I'm guilty of this too!), then the costs become impractical for those who truly need healthcare. I view health insurance as a social safety net, and wouldn't mind paying into the system all my life if it meant I never had to worry about losing my job AND my healthcare. Because let's face it–employer-based healthcare is cruel and uncivilized.

I said I wasn't going to get involved in this. Oh well. The most shocking thing about his entire thread hijack to me is the concept that the US government is going to be able to come up with a health care plan that anyone really wants to use. I mean seriously, name an industry that the government has taken over, and quality improved. Just one.

Benefits of youthful posters? They spend more of their time on a backpacking forum talking about backpacking than about universal healthcare. ;)

Hooray for Devin! I'm in my 70's and I'd far rather talk backpacking than politics myself! I really don't think that politics belong on a backpacking forum.

I'm all for having more youth on this forum even though they occasionally tend to get a little extreme. They (1) help the rest of us keep a young attitude and (2) make us question our assumptions, both of which are good things.

My mother survived a night out in mid-February, with temps in the single digits, with no camping gear. It's called knowing how to build a fire and keep it going.

The most shocking thing about his entire thread hijack to me is the concept that the US government is going to be able to come up with a health care plan that anyone really wants to use.

It can be done. Here in Australia we have government-run Medicare. It is not perfect (far from it) but as a country we wouldn't be without it. For a government to consider *not* having Medicare would electoral suicide.

I don't have medical insurance, but I'm still pretty young (early 30's). I'm happy to have Medicare there for when I fall ill. I have the option of taking out private health insurance, and probably will do when I start having kids or start earning more (you get charged an additional tax surcharge if you are earning more than $70,000 a year and do not have private insurance.)

In Australia we shake our heads in bewilderment at the US public health care system. For those of you that think that universal health care is a silly idea that just won't work, have a look at the outside world. People here still complain bitterly about our public health system, but in comparison to the US system it is amazing.

Disclaimer: I've never been part of the US public health system, so I may be bagging it unfairly.

Postal Service. There's one. How about national security? There's another. The right-wing adage that "private sector is more efficient than govt" is only true when the national interest is not undermined by a desire for profits. This is why we would never (fully) privatize security. Healthcare is another realm where the desire for profit undermines the ability to produce the best outcome. It is in the interests of the healthcare industry to drop risky patients, but clearly that is not the best outcome from a national interest perspective.

Oh, and to toot the postal industry's claim, I DEFY you to maintain that a private industry would produce door-to-door service to most any address in the U.S. for the same exact price. Just wouldn't happen–(again, market forces would preclude this since a private actor would rationally charge more for backwater addresses, cut down on delivery rates to those out-of-the-way addresses, etc.). Could a private actor reduce cost in postal service? Sure. Could it do so and still maintain the level of service/cost that the postal service does? Obviously not. Again, it's a national priority to have a reliable postal service. This is something we as a nation wouldn't throw away.

Now, when it comes to healthcare, no one is advocating giving the health industry to the government….that would be far too difficult at the moment. They are talking about nationalizing the insurance/coverage plans. Keep the industry private…nationalize a coverage plan. That's all. And yes, for those of us without insurance, we'd prefer this to nothing at all.

-Hooray for Devin! I'm in my 70's and I'd far rather talk backpacking than politics myself!

Oh, stop you'll make my wife jealous! ;)