winter layering system

Are you always goint to be wearing the gamma mx and the shell? If so, lose the gamma mx for a lightweight fleece garment, such as a patagonia r1 (also in hoody, sometimes).

My plan was to always have the MX Hoody and the Marmot (Outer shell) on all the time while active. Base camp or break is what I'm looking for. Not even to sure about the Marmot outershell? Both Arcteryx I think are fine, but just not confident about sub zero or high winds. Especially on the Whites.

What I am looking at is that you have no insulation layer. In my opinion most of these softshells or climbing jackets should not be used as an insulation layer. Ditch it and I would say to go with an R2 over an R1 because it is much warmer and you can always vent it if need be. Keep the shell but just use it if it gets windy or colder beyond what you are wearing.

I was out yesterday here and walked about 8 miles in a silkweight layer, an R2 and a Momentum wind jacket with the weather.com saying it was 28 but felt more like 13 with the large wind gusts. I felt fine and had to vent a little sometimes from my torso. I would still take the Montbell Alpine down Jacket I have if I was someplace out of the way and with the propensity for it to get really cold really fast or in case I might get sick.

I think the softshell is fine as an outer layer and will be more comfortable then wearing the hardshell. Whether you carry a hardshell for emergency use/extra protection is a tougher question. For hiking above treeline in the whites (and probably winter in yellowstone), you may want a layer of insulation under that. I regularly wear light fleece under my softshell and over my base layer. Because the softshell is so much more comfortable than a hardshell, you can wear more insulation and stay warmer without overheating.

If you are camping in the whites in the winter (something I haven't done), I think you need serious insulation, more than just a light down coat. For those conditions, I would look to a shelled down parka (lots of choices, but in the DAS parka mold) instead of a light puffy. That is just my opinion, but my guess is that anything light enough to fit under the MX is not going to be warm enough for camping, so instead something to go over the top and provide serious warm when not moving along the lines of belay jacket.

Hi Scott –

I too am learning more about layering for winter trips… From the advice I’ve received here I would agree you going to need a much warmer parka while you are in camp.

Recently I received some great advice IN THIS THREAD

The temps I am expecting to be at are most likely 10 or so degrees warmer than you. You can check out my setup HERE

Keep in mind that I consider myself a novice winter camper and there is still some duplication I need to get rid of in this list. However, I wanted to experiment and learn more about what I like and don’t like so I’m willing to bring along a few extras until I have more experience…

Mike Clelland posted a very thorough winter gear list HERE. It’s a good read!

Brett,

I thought the MX Hoody was the insulation layer? 3 Layer approach, base, insulation layer, windblocker. My Patagonia rain jacket has pit zips and all three have front zippers that zip up to the collar.

Then at base camp, I'm thinking a Montbell down Apline Jacket. Or should I fork over some $$$ and get the Parka?

Are you saying I need a R1 fleece under the MX Hoody? The coldest I have ever camped was at 22 degrees. Just want to make sure I am planning for worse case scenario.

Thanks everyone for the advise.

The MX hoody appears to be your mid layer. Insulation layer normally refers to an extra bit of clothing that you pull on when you stop, to make up for the fact that you're no longer producing so much heat. A down pullover, for example.

In general a fleece is a better mid layer than a softshell because fleeces are so much more breathable. On a dayhike I sometimes use a very light softshell and carry a windshirt for unexpectedly severe weather. It works but the difference in comfort is noticeable.

The MX Hoody should not be used as an insulation layer, especially a mid. IMHO soft shells should not be used as insulation layers. Stick with a 200wt fleece variant or synthetics/down jacket and leave the soft shell for wearing around town.

I'm with Brett on this one; I too think you'll need some sort of midlayer while moving. I haven't spent any time in the Whites in winter, but I've spent alot of time in winter climbing and backcountry skiing the Northern Rockies. Unless I'm on a tough lead or trying to break trail uphill, I get too cold with just a base and softshell. Putting a hardshell over it didn't help much, plus in those conditions (-10F to 10F) I would get some frost INSIDE the shell when I slowed or stopped my movement.

For me, a much better layering system for these conditions adds some insulation and removes the hardshell to allow as much breathability as possible. Here's what I use:

Base: Icebreaker 260 Tech Top

Mid: Homemade Powerstretch Hoody

Shell: Homemade hooded windshirt, or an old Ibex Randonee Pullover (skifans fabric, pitzips)

This system allows for a comfort range from around 0F to about 20F. If it's warmer I leave out the midlayer; if I expect colder, I also carry a light fleece vest(Windstopper Torino front, 100 wt. fleece back). I can use this piece over the other layers for variable conditions, or under the windshirt for more warmth.

I would also carry a pretty serious puffy coat, although I think a layered approach would work here too. I would choose something with at least about 7-8 ounces of down, and definitely a hood. Maybe a FF Hooded Helios? Lotta fill and a hood, so I think it would be warmer than an MB Alpine, even though it's not baffled. You could also use something like a Cocoon pullover, with a jacket like the MB Alpine Light hooded parka over it. I know Will Reitveld wrote about using a system like this in very cold conditions.

I highly reccomend you check out some of Mike Clelland's posts on the subject. He is a NOLS instructor, so he lives and works in conditions like this everyday.

Soft shells by definition are not designed to be an insulation layer, but with hoods the warmth factor goes up. For an extended rest or camp I just toss my insulation layer over the soft shell and whether I have chosen down or synthetic I’m impervious to wind and snow, highly rain resistant, and still had my hard shell as a backup

I recognize there is a honest debate on the viability of soft shells, be that as it may, soft shells have developed into a category like tents or sleeping bags and I can only speak about the Arc’teryx MX hoody, Mammut Laser, Mammut Champ Pant, Ibex Guide Light Pant, that perform amazingly well for me in the winter environments of Washington’s cascade mountains.

Another thing to keep in mind; climbing and skiing in places with the potential for extreme cold requires a bigger safety margin. Plan not only for the worst in weather conditions, but also for Murphy to rear his ugly head. You may get pinned down for days and run low on fuel/food. You may sustain an injury. You may become wet inadvertantly. You're clothing system will work if you're at your peak physical condition, but what if you aren't at peak physical condition?

I put my full gear list in the appropriate forum (gear list).

Thank you for all the help. I think I was a little confused on the difference between and insulator and a softshell. I am adding a marmot capline midweight to my baselayer.

No worries Scott. By the way, if you need a big puffy parka, I noticed last night that Backcountry Gear has the Montbell Permafrost parka on sale for $243, reg. $349. Baffled, Windstopper shell, helmet-compatible insulated hood, everything a winter climber needs to stay toasty!

http://www.backcountrygear.com/apparel/insulated_Jackets.cfm