bugs

I don't know anything about Greenland, but do know bugs. I can usually deal with mosquitos, but black flies can drive you crazy. Since black flies are listed as a major problem (as well as mosquitos), and I would guess they are earlier in the season (usually at thaw), I would go later in the season if at all possible. Missing the convergence of when black flies are peaking and mosquitos are emerging is a very good idea when trip planning in the north (unless you want to get away from everyone else).

I would just expect to wear long pants and long shirts with collars all the time. A dense material can still be light and bug proof. I haven't seen anything conclusive on BPL's thoroughfair, but I really like soft shells like dynamic, but even just woven nylon or polyester works too. In a button fishing type shirt. Bring a good head net.

The MSR is not bug proof? I would not even consider that, so the DR makes a lot more sense to me. Depending on how long you are going and if you are hiking (if this is a paddling trip, definitely take some form of bug shelter), I would still consider carrying some form of netting for cooking and sitting at camp. I am not sure how much this weighs, but even something unconstructed can work well, so something like the susie bug net:

http://www.boundarywaterscatalog.com/browse.cfm/4,3437.html

On paddling trips I often take the campmor bug net that is supposed to hang over a bed or cot and just string that up and sit underneath it (I haven't weighed that though either). I upgraded last year to the summit to the sea head net, and that is much nicer than the cheaper versions, lighter, smaller when packed, and much finer material (so get that or another good one).

Yes the MSR twin sisters is not bugproof its a shaped single skin shelter without floor.
pro were lots of space, bombproof ( i bought it for Iceland winds) no floor and 800ish grammes for 2 people.

But i have found quite a few photos, videos, and horrors tales about Greenland mosquitoes, they seem as bad as Scotland midges but they can cope with somehow cold weather :)

http://icestories.exploratorium.edu/dispatches/mosquitoes/

thanks for the link i didnt knew bug net that large were made, largest i saw before was the photo of the guy wearing the simblissity bug shelter as a torso net.

its a hiking trip with 10 days of food carried at one time ie about 7kg for me plus lets say 1,5kg of water and 5,5kg for all my gear except what i wear when i have nothing else than baselayer as top. Already 14kg.
So i am trying to adapt a bit my gear with this threat :) but at the smallest weight cost.

You might consider treating your light layers with Permethrin. That way you could be comfortable in hot weather without being vulnerable to bugs.

I watched the video and it does look like the arctic in terms of swarms. The susie bug net is 12 oz (not sure what weighs so much, but it is probably high quality). But if this is right, the $12 coghlan's bug net is 4oz. I have this and have used it for just this purpose. Big enough for two to sit under easily. The bottom will blow around in the wind, but I put rocks in the corners. It could be supported by treking poles, and would give enough room to maybe even cook under.

For 4 oz, how could you not want to bring some sanity:

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___86662

Permethrin sprayed clothing works well with mosquitoes, but my experience is that flies regard it as an appetizer.

I don't thinks so,
granny. It is a contact poison deadly to insects in general. It is used as an insecticide in agricultural applications.

Prior to paddling the tundra, I treated my clothing with permethrin. We found black flies present at the typical temperature range we are accustom to; however, the mosquitoes were out at much lower temperatures than expected.

I spritz my hands, cuffs, shirt collar and hat brim with the highest concentration of DEET I can find. Most of the time I wore my bug net beneath my hat and would pull it up or down as needed. Due to low temperatures it was much easier to just cover up or use the wind to keep them away. On warm days I wore the Original Bugshirt: http://www.bugshirt.com/

http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k3/worth-voyageur/Deer%20River/?action=view&current=MOV01472.flv

DEET is not effective at repelling black flies. At times I also questioned how effective it was at repelling arctic mosquitoes.

The bugs tend to congregate in the lee. Therefore, it is best to eat facing into the wind. Likewise, set up your tent so that the door faces into the wind. If not, bring a pee bottle.

I also like to wear dark color pants and something light for my torso. It is my belief that they prefer darker colors. When dressed in this manner I find I have more crawling black flies below the waist than above.

ouzel, all I know is that the flies were merrily chewing on me through my shirt, despite its having been heavily sprayed with permethrin before the trip. No dead flies around, either, except the one I managed to swat. That was one trip on which I didn't take my windshirt, and I sure wished for it!

Not yet mentioned in this thread is that permethrin sprayed on clothing is a big help in tick bite prevention.

Interesting difference in experience. We come from the same part of the world, with the same #@%$& flies and my experience is the opposite. Go figger… ???

I am thinking of leaving the twin sisters at home for greenland and bringing a typee style shelter and making a custom bug shelter for it like in :

http://www.tumtum.com/kayak/equipment/BugShelter.shtml

they are a few commercial bug shelters like the serenity or the MLD with floor, i thought at first it would be a good idea, but even if custom to have the same height as the tent i would loose what i love with floorless shelter , to be able to go in with shoes / water and not soiling it.

as for typee style tent i did a rapid search :

oware square lg (m) : 3,05 s (m2): 9,30 ht (m): 1,83 wt (g) : 738
oware square lg (m) : 2,74 s (m2): 7,51 ht (m): 1,83 wt (g) : 682

golite SL3 hex lg (m) : 1,45 s (m2): 5,48 ht (m): 1,57 wt (g) : 820
golite SL4 square lg (m) : 2,89 s (m2): 8,35 ht (m): 1,85 wt (g) : 966
MLD sil square lg (m) : 3,05 s (m2): 9,30 ht (m): 1,75 wt (g) : 710
MLD spin square lg (m) : 2,74 s (m2): 7,51 ht (m): 1,75 wt (g) : 540
BD ML square lg (m) : 2,18 s (m2): 4,75 ht (m): 1,75 wt (g) : 1 050
Sierra design penta lg (m) : 1,47 s (m2): ht (m): 1,47 wt (g) : 800
MH kiva penta lg (m) : 1,88 s (m2): 6,09 ht (m): 1,57 wt (g) :

i am hesitating at first between the shangri la 3 or even 4, lots more surface / height for a very small weight penalty it look like.

Curious, Mary, what brand/type permethrin did you use on that particular trip?

It's called "Repel" and is is only 0.5% permethrin, which might be the problem. It zaps mosquitoes and ticks just fine. It is advertised only for ticks and mosquitoes. If there's a stronger formulation, I haven't found it yet. Maybe I need to check out the farm stores!

For my dog last summer I tried K9Advantix, which contains permethrin, instead of his usual monthly Frontline topical treatment. It helped a little with the mosquitoes, but not for the flies. Frontline seems to work a little better against ticks.

Regarding Permethrin, I couldn't find definitive documentation but I really suspect that wool holds the permethrin better than synthetics. (Look for the US Army study on permethrin clothing treatment for TMI) I treated my 190 weight Icebreaker Merino T with Permethrin last summer and had no bites through it. This was June in the Sierra Nevada when the mosquitoes were horrid.

On the MSR Twin Sister tent, why not add netting skirts and inner front door? Should be a very simple sew job.

PS: I used Sawyer 0.5% Permethrin clothing traetment. A friend used the same for his wife and daughter's stuff but ran out. He diluted some stuff bought from the local hardware to the same percentage for his own gear and reported that the hardware store permethrin treated clothing smelled very toxic. He suspected that there were other chemical agents than permethrin and will use a product aimed at clothing next time.

Mary:

That's the type I use too! I spray the stuff on my clothing (all synthetic), shoes, backpack and tent. I've hiked in the PNW as well — and as far as I can remember, I've only ever been 'bitten' by pesky black flies on my arms. Ouch.

But I will be more wary going forward…

I would be leary using a floorless shelter. It has been my observation that thousands upon thousands of black flies take refuge in the ankle high brush in high winds. I would be concern that they would eventally be crawling all over me.

I will concur that soaking synthetics (Quantum) in permethrin is pretty much useless. Me thinks the fabric just doesn't absorb enough toxin to be effective.

The DR is a great tent in bug country, especially for two people. The dual entry means less time with the door unzipped to get in and out (no one to crawl over). If we're going into known bad areas (especially if staying in huts), we also carry a can of Raid. Maybe not UL, but what cost sanity?! The raid is also pretty handy at the end of a trip when you get into a car filled with biting midges…

Black flies are horrid beasties, especially when you are engaged in NUMBER 2 and they smell dinner. I don’t consider just draping bug netting over me good enough because that only deters flying pests. Ticks and chiggers come at you by ground attack. I have been horribly covered in both from sleeping on the ground. If bugs are a concern use a full enclosure. Id go with the DR if not a tarp and bivy. OR makes a bug bivy that is all no-see-um but I think it weighs 15oz or so. I saw a similar bug bivy from Slumberjack but it too was in the pound range. 100% deet usually works well for me, don’t get it on anything plastic.