Western Mountaineering flight jacket — how cold is it good for?

David,
I can't speak to the comparison aspect of your question but, with the layers you specify, the WM Flight Jacket should be just fine down to 20 degrees F. I've had mine down that far with a silk turtle neck under an IBEX Ribbed Wooly, plus head wear and gloves. I would assume in either case that you have a wind proof/resistant layer of some kind in the mix(either wind shirt or WPB jacket).

You could get a Skaha Plus with handwarmer pockets for 10oz (comes with the hood) if you really want something to druel over. The flight and skaha are both comparably warm to the phantom give or take fit.

It all depends on your body temperature, how you like to stay warm and local conditions. I have found that humid air feels colder than dry air. Do you like to be a little chilly, do you like to be toasty? Do you need to be warm while leaning back in a comfy chair for hours at a time, do you only need to be warm for 10 minutes while taking a rest stop in the middle of a cold hiking day?

If I were to assign a temp rating to the Flight jacket, I'd call it a 40 degree jacket. That's assuming that you're wearing the appropriate base layers to be comfortable while active at that temperature. I would not bring the Flight jacket if I wanted to be warm around camp at anything below 30 degrees. Between 30 and 40 it's going to depend on how long you want to use it for, how many fleece layers you want to wear, how hot you run, whether you'll use it mostly for rest breaks while hiking, or not, and other factors. It's fine down to 35 or 30 if you have a number of layers of fleece on, but personally I don't think more than two base layers should need to be packed if the low is only 30 and I plan on relying on a puffy jacket for inactive warmth. Kind of defeats the ultralightitude of an 11 ounce down jacket when I also have to bring 2-3 extra fleeces, but maybe that's just me.

The Flight jacket is in my opinion, a much better 3 season jacket than a winter jacket. In fact, I would not even consider using it for winter.

Sean,

You and Art came to vary different conclusions. I am curious why you said, "The flight and skaha are both comparably warm to the phantom give or take fit." What specification information or personal experience led you to that conclusion?

I can't find where Mountain Hardwear lists the fill amount in the Phantom Jacket, but the WM Flight Jacket has 5oz of 850 fill down. I believe both jackets are sewn through, so if you can find the amount of down in the Phantom, it would better help you compare it to other jackets.

I forgot to mention in my post, if you're using a decent size campfire for cold weather warmth, that's another story altogether. In conjunction with a nice warm fire, actually, I do believe that the Flight jacket would be fine around camp down to the 20s. You'll be a tad chilly in the mornings until you can get a fire going again, but for a lot of people that's just part of the experience–it's not how I like to prepare for the cold, however, so I would recommend bringing a warmer jacket for those type of temperatures.

It is a nice jacket, just not as warm as you might've come to expect for a down jacket. I'm sure most everybody here is familiar with the North Face Nuptse. For comparison I think that jacket is easily 15-20 more degrees warmer than the Flight, at least in perceived warmth while inactive, not using a fire.

Brad,

The Phantom size L version has ~7 oz of down in it and the size medium is only slightly less. This is why I asked Sean how he drew his conclusion that they were equal in warmth.

Art's response hit it on the head relative to my experiences. I've been around camp in two lower layers, midweight top base layer, hat, gloves, and the Flight jacket and have been good into the 20's (F). In retrospect a hood would be the only way I'd want to improve my Flight jacket…been quite thrilled with it so far.

For three season use I have a Patagonia Down Sweater which is similar in weight and warmth to the WM Flight. For true winter conditions I would suggest either the WM Vapor or Meltdown Jackets. Both of these jackets are heavier by +/- 4 oz but far warmer IMHO.

Hi, all-

The bottom line answer here is that it won't be quite as warm, but it is 7.5 ounces lighter than a Phantom. For sustained periods of inactivity at 20F, most people would need more layers than the OP mentioned. Probably a fleece jacket or something would do. Depends on the importance you place on pack weight vs. camp activity. If you're axing as many ounces as possible and are fine with crawling into your sleeping bag as soon as you start to get too cool, fine.

Patagonia's Down Sweater is not comparable to the WM Flight. The Pat. DS only uses about 2 to 2.5 ounces of down vs. 5 ounces in the Flight.

For added warmth with versatility, you might consider adding the WM Flash or Flight vest–3.5 and 5.5 ounces respectively. Add one of those to the Flight jacket and you're still lighter than the Phantom, with more warmth and versatility. Might also consider a Nunatak Skaha Plus vest, 6 ounces, adds a hood… Cheers.

I'm with Nathan on this one. There seems to be a lot of overkill going on with all these layers of fleece, etc. I suppose it depends on one's metabolism to some degree, but I'm 5' 8", 137#(not much body fat obviously) and I've worn my Flight jacket comfortably down to the low 20's with 2 layers, as posted above. The key, IMO, is to have a wind shirt, or WPB jacket(which most people carry anyway) to throw over the Flight, along with adequate head, hand and leg layers. As always, YMMV, but it's definitely worth experimenting around with before going with a monster full on winter jacket for shoulder season low 20's conditions, IMO.

Has anyone had these side by side to compare the loft?

Again, I should emphasize that this jacket is for winter use in Texas, thus perhaps "3-season" would be a more appropriate label. I don't plan on wearing the jacket in temps below 20-25 degrees F. (If it's that cold, I'm either in my sleeping bag or at home). Also, I plan on confining my layering system to a baselayer (midweight) and midlayer (lightweight fleece, such as R1), as I expect daytime temps to be around or above freezing. And yes, I would be using a WPB jacket. I will admit, however, that I've haven't always been "toasty" warm in my Phantom jacket. Last year, the temps were around 20-30 degrees, and I was cold, but this was probably due to the winds be in excess of 60 mph and the jacket riding up in the back (it's a little short).

Tom:
We're almost the exact same body size. I'm 5'7" and around 135 pounds–so not much body fat either…all muscle. :) BTW, do you happen to know how the two jackets compare in terms of fit?

I guess the only way to know for sure is to buy the jacket and try it on in these temps…

Brad,
The Patagonia Down Sweater weighs 12.4 oz while the WM Flight Jacket weighs 10.5 oz (total weight). Based upon both jackets having light weight shell materials, 800 + down fill, hand warmer pockets and neither having hoods I would think them both to be fairly equal in fill weight. I love all my WM gear but the Patagonia Down Sweater is a nice three season jacket.

I just spoke with a Mountain Hardwear rep and he said that there is 197 g of down in the Phantom, size large. This translates to 6.95 oz of down and confirms what Richard had posted. I also found out that the current model uses a 15D fabric rather than the 30D fabric from last year. The current fabric is 0.8 oz / yd2. This is lighter than the fabric used on the WM Flight jacket (0.9 oz / yd2).

Now I have last year's model Phantom jacket (and the Phantom 32 bag, too), so maybe mine has less down–or is simply heavier overall…but given these numbers, it seems that the Flight would have to have a significantly lighter shell to provide the same warmth as the Phantom. I mean, if the Phantom is 5.5 oz heavier, surely this can't all be fabric?

Thom-
My post about the Patagonia wasn't meant as a dig at you, nor is this. I own a Down Sweater and love it. And I understand your rationale. But have you seen both of these jackets? The Down Sweater has about 3/4 inch of (one-sided) loft, whereas the Flight has about 2 1/4 inches of (one-sided) loft. I'm a dealer for both companies and just verified those numbers. Not to be a nit-picker, but I don't want someone getting a jacket that's not nearly as warm as expected. Cheers-

Brad

For ultralight down jackets I have used or had some minimal experience with, I'd rate their warmth something like this:
Montbell UL inner down jacket = Patagonia down sweater < Montbell Alpine Light = WM Flight = Feathered Friends Hyperion < MH Phantom < Nunatak Skaha with overfill < Montbell Alpine jacket

Dave,
I'll trade you an answer for a couple of pounds of muscle. :)
I can't comment on fit as my only experience has been with the Flight. But, given your layering system(I use an R1 Hoody, next to skin in the winter when snowshoeing in 20-30 degree weather, with only a Windstopper vest over it and a WPB jacket for rest stops/nasty weather), I can't for the life of me see how a Flight jacket with a mid-weight layer and an R1 wouldn't work for you in similar temperatures in Texas. The key is having a wind barrier of some kind.

I know that everyone is different, but surprisingly I was warm this past weekend on a trip where the temps were in the upper teens around camp with a Capaline 1 Baselayer, a R1 pullover, My Mont-Bell Thermawrap, and Golite Phantom Rain Shell. I even brought a Patagonia Micro Puff Pullover that I was going to layer over the Thermawrap, but never used it.

Depending on what you are using for the rest of your body (I was using a similar set up on my lower body; Capaline 1, R1, Thermarap, and Precip pants), I would think the Flight Jacket would be warm enough for around 20*. I couldn't resist ordering a Mont-Bell Alpine Down Jacket with them on sale everywhere, but my wife put it up until Christmas, so I had to make do with what I had.

The phantom, with the highest baffles, has around 7oz of fill but the cut is somewhat short I find so it kind of sits around your belly button. Your torso would be warmer but the part below would be cooler. The flight with around 5 oz of fill covers more of your body. The skaha+ also with around 5oz of fill adds a hood but has the only .75" baffles. Depending on how each fits the noticable warmth would be comparable.

Sean, I think you're misunderstanding Nunatak's specs. The Phantom has sewn thru baffles that are filled to loft a certain height in the middle of the boxes or tubes (I think it's about 2-2.5"). At the seams, however, the loft is 0". That's the drawback of sewn thru baffles; it's not the most thermally efficient design.

The Skaha uses 0.75" mesh along these seams to prevent any zones of zero loft, and to "box" them internally. They are still filled so they loft to 2-2.5" in the middle of the baffles, and the edges are still the areas of the lowest loft. The main difference is that the areas of lowest loft are not zero.