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The Sublite, a Scarp 1/2

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PostedNov 25, 2008 at 7:42 pm

There was a small amount waffling last week over the decision to purchase a new Sublite. After all, I have the prototype test model. But after a year of testing Tyvek prototypes I ordered and paid for the production model to now have all of the features of the finished product. It is a good tent and perfect for the dry climate where I live and hike. This is the tent I will be using for now. There is no other tent out there that does what the Tyvek Sublite does for me. Take a look at it. Doesn’t it somewhat resemble a “half Scarp” all pitched out nice and tight? It exudes stability. It breathes, it sheds water; it refuses to condensate and it is lightweight. Furthermore, it is inexpensive. I wanted the finished product rather than an unfinished draft of the final version.

A pre-release discussion can be found at:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=13561

Discussed above are the topics of pitch, condensation, storm worthiness and a general comparison with other fabrics, particularly silnylon. Others have discussed their experiences and some folks have reported leakage in prolonged periods of rain which is a represented risk on the Tarptent website. For the Sierras and the Southwest where I hike, it has been all that I had hoped for. The following comments are made just to answer a some questions a few folks have PMed to me.

I am not, as is readily apparent, a professional gear tester with experience in orthodox gear reviews. However I am not apologizing for this. I have had the advantage of using the tent for a year and now that I have used it and judged it, I have purchased it and look forward to receiving the commercial model. I wouldn’t have ordered the Sublite today unless it was absolutely the tent that I wanted. There is other gear on my wish list and funds are not unlimited.

So what is so great about the Sublite to cause me plunk down a wad of cash when I already have the prototype? Here are some selling points for me.

The Sublite is lightweight, lighter than silnylon, breathable, roomy with both elbow and headroom and quick and easy to pitch, even on a solid rock bench. As hard and as often as I have tried, the tent refuses to generate condensation on the tent walls. Even when my head is directly adjacent to the wall breathing directly into the fabric the walls have remained dry. More importantly, it has sheltered me in some pretty strong and lengthy periods of rain.

Although condensation has never dripped nor even formed on the tent walls, I have experienced condensation on objects laying on the floor on two occasions. This problem was posted here in this forum and several experts explained the phenomena. It has happened twice in the last year. The colder air seeps in through the mesh condensates on the warmer objects on the floor. Amazingly it has not formed on the tent walls and this I really don’t understand even though folks have attempted to explain it to me. It would be interesting to test a model without the mesh having the Tyvek connect directly with the bathtub floor.
The prototype weighs 16 ozs.
Tent on scale
ScaleReading

The production model is 18 oz, hardly a penalty for the improved features such as a larger vent at the top, added bottom vent, wrapped door flap zipper and some other amenities that provide value in the field.

The steep pitch of the front peak provides maximum usable length, especially when combined with the boxed foot so that even tall folks will find room to stretch out.

Cottonwood

Notice also the taut pitch on the fabric with no need for resetting the stakes or re-tensioning of the guy lines after the sun dips and the air cools.

As roomy as the tent is, it has a small footprint and easily slides into the most untenable space such as this precious and only flat spot for miles around. Also notice how perfectly the tent is pitched in spite of not being able to drive stakes into the rock. A long stick or a hiking pole can be hooked into the rear guys and anchored with rocks for a nice tight and effortless pitch. I probably threw this up faster than Franco’s record breaking time with his Contrail.

grpvncamp

The space on the third evening in Lonetree Canyon was even more problematic but the Sublite easily takes advantage of small spaces. There is no compromise in the tight pitch due to suboptimal space.

lonetreejohn

Another important feature is the support for the bathtub floor. Instead of only the four supports at each corner, the sides of the floor are supported with adjustable straps attached at the pole holster. The strap is a thin ribbon style nylon that slides easily through the buckle for adjustment. There is plenty of room for gear at the head of the tent and on the sides especially near the middle where the floor widens.

cottonwoodmess

There is ample room to sit up. The boxed foot allows a gradual taper of the roofline allowing headroom to maneuver without interference from the roof. The mesh below the door is not zippered on my prototype so I have to be careful to tuck it in when it is raining or water drips down the mesh into the floor. I learned this lesson once. I am informed that this has been resolved on the production model with a full zipper.

Lastly, Tyvek has provided complete protection against rain. This last trip presented some anxiety accompanying the longest rain experienced so far. The previous last rain with the prototypes was a vicious two-hour storm last August. This past week at GCNP it rained for a combined 6 hours with no leaks.
ingaraintent
The storm was essentially two periods of rain separated by a dry period of several hours before it started raining again the last night at Indian Gardens. I have an expensive sleeping bag and was concerned about it sopping up a bunch of water dripping into to the tent. I woke up several times worrying about water pouring in. It didn’t happen even though it was pelted by hours of rain.

I have covered most of these features in other posts. Hopefully this helps with decision making. Here in the Sierras and the Southwest I enjoy the CLIMATE FOR WHICH THIS TENT WAS DESIGNED. Henry is a California boy himself in addition to being a PCT alum and has designed a tent for his own enjoyment as well as for folks who share a like climate. Hiking the Sierras where rain can be expected late in the summer in the afternoons and early evening, the Sublite will provide assurance of a dry bed, even if lasts most of the night. Not incidentally, the cost factor of Tyvek is a significant plus considering the weight. I have suggested that to Henry that he cut out the mesh and bring the Tyvek down to connect directly with the bathtub floor but he was worried about condensation.

Due to rapidly changing styles of gear and technology, this fabric makes very good sense. It won’t break the bank while making it easier to justify buying the newest style to hit the market when the urge hits. Of course only the very shallow minded materialist changes his gear frequently anyway and this is not really a concern for the stalwart, stable minded and discerning ultralighter.

Bob Bankhead BPL Member
PostedNov 25, 2008 at 7:57 pm

"Of course only very shallow minded materialist changes his gear frequently anyway and this is not really a concern for the stalwart, stable minded and discerning ultralighter."

Is there really such a creature as a stalwart, stable-minded and discerning ultralighter?

PostedNov 25, 2008 at 8:23 pm

Great comments John, particularly like the "CLIMATE FOR WHICH THIS TENT WAS DESIGNED FOR ", reminding us that in the end there cannot be a shelter that works for everybody in all conditions.
A comment that made me smile was "Henry is a California boy himself in addition to being a PCT alum and has designed a tent for his own enjoyment as well as for folks who share a like climate" that brings to mind a certain other recent shelter….

The Sublite Tyvek should do really well here in continental Australia ( I would suggest the silnylon version for Tasmania ) .
As far as having the Tyvek directly attached to the floor, as much as you have had a great experience with the "breathability" of Tyvek I do think that once you take away the air flow (chimney effect) you will start to get some ( maybe a lot) condensation. You may want to just tape some newspaper over that mesh and see what happens.
I will be really interested to see your impression of the final product. I was happy with my 06 Contrail, but since receiving the 08 version I have retired the other one. Nothing drastically better but enough to notice . ( one of the improvements eluded my scruitiny till Henry pointed that one out…)
Franco

Quoddy, who has both the Contrail and the Sublite, rekons that he can set up the Contrail faster, not that 30 sec more make any difference. However neither of you two have so far bettered my record.
I am also the record holder for pealing the most potatoes in one minute, wearing one red and one blue sock whilst whistling Waltzing Matilda , our unofficial National Anthem
( the real one is "We are Happy Little Vegemite's")

PostedNov 25, 2008 at 8:38 pm

Franco, it is largely due to your affection for the contrail that I have ordered one and expect to have it in my eager hands tomorrow.
It will be part of a test group of solo tents which will include the Big Sky Revolution, the MSR Hubba, an SD to be named later and at least one other. I was going to include the GG The One but will wait for "The New One" due out early next year.
Thanks for your videos and informational comments on this forum. It is very helpful.

PostedNov 25, 2008 at 9:04 pm

Thank you for that.
See if you can set it up a few times before you go out.
The last time I was out a mate of mine laughed at me when I gave him my Bibler to use. He did not know that I possessed such a big (packed size) tent. Now I am training myself not to faint at the sight of something like the Scarp 1….
( the Sublite inside it's stuff sack is smaller than the Contrail)

Franco

PostedNov 25, 2008 at 9:21 pm

Good point Franco! I will have to give your idea a try. The thought occurred to me of possibly modifying the prototype after I receive the production version. Do you have any ideas on ways to connect the tent directly to the floor?

P.P.: That is a brilliant idea of having a test committee wherein each member is appointed a tent to test so that the whole committee can view and judge for himself which tent is more appropriate for each individual. Most of us here just go out and buy every tent that might possibly satisfy every possible situation, and then cry over the transition cost from traditional to lightweight, defend ourselves against angry spouses and go begging for the needs of our children.

PostedNov 25, 2008 at 10:06 pm

I am only suggesting covering up the mesh rather than replacing because I am convinced that you will see a significant amount of condensation once you cover the mesh up.
I have had a good look at several single wall shelters and I can see why the Tarptents in the same conditions do better than most regarding condensation management.
Franco
BTW, easy enough to stick paper to Tyvek, not easy at all to stick paper to silnylon. You may need to use clothes pegs , or clips for the experiment.

PostedNov 25, 2008 at 10:11 pm

"That is a brilliant idea of having a test committee wherein each member is appointed a tent to test so that the whole committee can view and judge for himself which tent is more appropriate for each individual."

It would indeed be brilliant if I weren't the one buying most of the tents!!
However, the losers of the trials will be given to family and friends who will have better tents than they now possess and I will have the winner………..winners…….ah heck, I'd really like to get down to less than 10 shelters…….
(Jonathan the Enabler, are you listening?)

PostedNov 25, 2008 at 11:44 pm

Is there something going on ?
First John comes out with that puzzling statement "stalwart, stable minded and discerning ultralighter" ( who is like that ?) , now we have an arbitrary number that restricts our choice of shelters. Why less than 10 ?
Franco
P.P. If you are considering the Hubba , I hope that you have at least put an order in for the Scarp 1.

PostedNov 26, 2008 at 3:31 am

I stalk every Sublite thread and long for the day when I am ready to buy! Might be a Sublite Mark II by then.

Question: Seems like the tyvek version handles rain quite well but is the sili better again?
I am still not sure what are the advantages of one over the other.

PS. If anyone can't decipher Franco's 'Australiana' let me know!

PostedNov 26, 2008 at 5:21 am

Nice report, John. If I wasn't located in an area of long periods of rain the Tyvek version might well have been my choice instead of the silnylon.

Before I packed away my Sublite last night I added zip pulls on the 8 zip heads (4 interior/4 exterior) using the same line used on all TarpTents. I have the 2 piece pole that I use on the base of the 2007 Contrail, but the latest design of both the Contrail and the new Sublite indicate that it may not be necessary. The foot end seems to have been improved and is much tighter. I did throw in 2 TheraBand tensioners to keep the setup nice and tight in varying conditions, should the need arise. I already get the impression that the silnylon Sublite is not prone to having any major issues in this area.

I'm hoping to get out on the Long Trail for a few days after Thanksgiving to give the Sublite it's first real outing. I'm also hoping that the snow will be merciful in the higher elevations.

t.darrah BPL Member
PostedNov 26, 2008 at 8:01 am

John,
Instead of using paper to cover the vents for testing I can provide you with the tyvek you would need. Send me a PM with the lengths and widths of tyvek you would like/need and I will send these to you – free. Just tape the tyvek in place and test for results. Just a thought, tyvek material used in place of paper would be a more accurate test IMHO.

Thom

Dave Heiss BPL Member
PostedNov 26, 2008 at 10:35 am

John,

Thanks for your review. I own a Contrail, but like the look and weight of the Tyvek Sublite. It may not be appropriate for hiking here in the Washington Cascades, but I can still want it, can't I?

My question for you is about moonlit nights. I'm guessing a bright moon would really light up the interior of a white Tyvek tent. Have you noticed this on any of your outings and if yes, was it hard to sleep?

PostedNov 26, 2008 at 11:39 am

Dave,

I have not given moonlight any more thought with this tent than with any other. This last trip was during a waxing moon of over 50% so it was pretty bright out, bright enough to move about camp and do chores without additional lighting. However there was no notice of this tent amplifying the light, i.e. not a problem with me.

Thom,

Thanks for the advice and the offer. I have some Tyvek to do what you and Franco have suggested. Even though this is something I have thought about, I really don’t think I would desecrate this piece of equipment in spite of my own creative but mal-directed propensities.

PostedNov 26, 2008 at 11:53 am

John,
I see the two SlingLights hovering behind your Sublite. That sold me. I ordered a Sublite last night. I'll relegate my Evolution 2P to 2 person use. That takes another 30.5 ounces off my back, and it was on sale. My total cost, including tax and shipping, was $2.50 less than the list price.

PostedNov 26, 2008 at 12:29 pm

Hey John , I might have missed it but I have not seen any comments about sun protection. I have it in my mind that Tyvek should be a lot cooler than silnylon, any thought ?
( I occasionally like an afternoon nap…)
Franco

PostedNov 26, 2008 at 1:43 pm

Hi Franco, Haven't had the Sublite pitched early enough to test this. All I know is what has been discussed here that Tyvek manages to maintain a fairly stable temperature, most likely due to its ability to breathe. Now that is a good idea for defrosting the holiday turkey, set up a silnylon tent in the back yard and shove the big bird in there. Sorry, I just haven't had the Sublite pitched early enough in direct sun light to test for keeping a cool environment for a siesta.

Denis,

I am still scratching my head over the selling point of the Sling Lights, except that it may be evidence of a very sound mind that takes care of a “tired derriere.” I don’t think you will be disappointed. You made a good decision. Be sure to post your experience once you have had a chance to take it out. Did you order the substitue poles?

With best regards,

John

PostedNov 26, 2008 at 2:03 pm

John,
I did order the poles. Typically I use the original LuxuryLight Trailsticks. The straps are adjustable and it appears that I may be able to use the "Sticks" to erect the Sublite. In the event they aren't satisfactory I'll have the Sublite ploes. Also I'll be making a Tyvek ground sheet to protect the Sublite floor. I've been using a Tyvek ground sheet for my Evolution 2P for three seasons and it's holding up very well.

Re Slinglights: Sound mind, sound butt. And heavenly to stretch out in on breaks and at the end of the day.

PostedNov 27, 2008 at 9:54 am

I live in the PNW, but am really interested in the Tyvek version of this tent for 3-season conditions. Do you think adding a DWR or wp/b bivy would protect me in the event of a prolonged downpour that compromises the Tyvek fabric?

Also, if the fabric wets out, will it actually mist or even pour rain directly into the tent, or will it merely saturate the fabric, where it can then drip down the inner sides the way condensation does? In other words, if the Tyvek saturates, could one still be relatively protected with a DWR bivy, or are we talking full-on rain drops on one's sleeping bag?

I ask because it seems that, for the kind of backpacking I do (3-season, 3 days or less), I'm much more likely to deal with condensation issues than prolonged rain issues. My rationale is that a Tyvek Sublite combined with a bivy will still breathe better than a Sublite Sil. Then again, when has anyone died of a little side-wall condensation?

I have decided, for my camping needs, I will always use a bivy, even in a tarptent (I'm willing to take the small weight penalty to get a comfortable bug-free zone but still be protected from cold, breezy nights). With this in mind I wonder if the Tyvek Sublite would work for me in the PNW.

Then again, I suppose if I'm using a bivy, I could use the Silnylon version since I'd be protected from condensation droplets anyway. See my dilemma? Henry, care to chime in? =)

PostedNov 27, 2008 at 10:01 am

David,

Thanks for your points. Yes it is for breathability; I am a little worried that adding a bivy to a more enclosed Tarptent Sil might compromise breathability too much. I also like the lack of stretch and the idea of it being cooler during the day.

I actually did purchase the Silnylon version on Monday (it's in the mail), but I woke up this morning, read this thread, and wondered if I had made a mistake. I think you're right though, the Silnylon will give me the full protection, and the bivy will give me the added temperature control/moisture management (as opposed to further restricting breathability).

dave e BPL Member
PostedApr 28, 2012 at 10:51 pm

Will a Scarp 1 with solid liner be too warm in summer?How about condensation in summer?Is this a just a winter tent or a true 4 season?Thanks.

PostedApr 28, 2012 at 11:29 pm

Why not buy the Scarp with both solid and mesh inners and the solid inner in cold, and use the mesh inner in warmer conditions? The mesh inner will let any thru-breeze to work more over the whole inner.

The inner will help keep any condensation off you, even a mesh inner.

dave e BPL Member
PostedApr 29, 2012 at 12:53 am

I dont see the mesh inner for Scarp 1 for sale on the Tarptent website.

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