Trying to see the reason for lightweight softshells

> Getting wet means getting cold, and that is simply unacceptable for me.
Well, OK, but will you get wet in a softshell in sub-freezing conditions? I doubt it.

Mind you, I don't use any softshells above freezing.

> I have read BPL's lightweight winter clothing systems article and I cannot accept leaving a hardshell (at least a jacket) at home in the winter.
We can but publish the articles.

Cheers

Andy Kirkpatrick has an excellent explanation of soft shells on his Psychovertical website, http://www.psychovertical.com/?thebestsoftshell

For my money, forget about anything with a laminated fabric, such as Powershield or Windstopper. These are the antithesis of both layering and softshell philosophy. They're to insulated to be a layering shell, and not breathable enough to be a softshell. I'm pretty sure there have been no replies from USERS on this thread defending them. It's true to say that these are the suburban fashion pieces. You put them on when you leave the house, wear them to watch the kids play soccer, and take them off when you get to the mall or work.

Stretch wovens such as Scoeller and Inertia are a completely different story. You put them on when you get up in the morning (assuming you didn't sleep in them) wear them all day and take them off (optional) when you go to bed at night. If it gets cold, you flip your hood up. If you don't have a hood, it's not a true softshell. On a six day trip in anything but summer, I'll generally take my pants off somewhere around day 2 or 3 to change underwear, and maybe again on day 4. Otherwise they stay on. They NEVER go in my pack.

Softshells do require a leap of faith to work well.
They require you to adjust from a lifetime of a layering.
They work best with just one THIN layer underneath. They don't work as a softshell when you wear a fleece underneath. This turns them into a heavyweight windproof.
They aren't magic- You can't substitute them for a puffy jacket with 3/4" of loft. To think you can is naivety at best, stupidity at worst.
They aren't magic- 30 min of heavy rain will wet them out. You need to decide if this is a problem for you. Options are to carry a hardshell, sit under a tarp for half an hour and watch the world change around you while you have lunch, or realise that if the front will move through fairly quickly, you won't be any wetter or colder in your softshell than you will be in your hardshell.
They excel at stop-go activity
They're heavy. This is the bottom line. They weigh more than a windshell and a baselayer. You need to decide whether this makes them worth carrying for you. I debate taking my MEC Ferrata Jacket every trip, but find that I wear it ALL the time, every time I take it. My MEC Schoeller pants are worn, every trip I don't plan on being in shorts from breakfast to dinner. Please believe me when I say that these are NOT a fashion item. Imagine the most embarrassing pair of nylon track pants your Dad wore in the 70s. Now add in hand patched crampon holes. All in a hideous schoolboy blue. Now you understand how good they must be to get me to wear them.

Rod

>Mind you, I don't use any softshells above freezing.

Roger, I find that Schoeller Dryskin pants are acceptable from 15C down. I'll generally wear shorts from 10C up.

I use the Schoeller for trips that will be consistently below 15, ie most late autumn, winter and early spring trips. Mine are Nylon, poly and elastane. I would expect that anything with wool would need a lower temp for comfort.

I have worn two types of soft shell pants. The first is made from cloudveil's Inertia material. I have worn these pants in conditions that I would have worn the typical supplex hiking pants, as well as conditions that the supplex pants would have been supplemented with either a featherweight base or some windpants (e.g. trips with a low >20F, daytime >40F). The cloudveil pants were more comfortable in almost all conditions except for an extended rain shower. That said, they seem to be less durable and more expensive, so I will likely return to a pair of supplex pants in the future.

The second is a pair pants made from dryskin. These are my go to pants for the winter and I can't imagine using something else. I have been comfortable in these pants when active in 0-40F temps, and inactive 30-60F. They have never felt clammy, do a great job repelling snow and moderate rain, don't absorb too much moisture, dry quickly, are soft, quiet, don't bind, and are quite durable. Typically I am pretty active the whole day and don't change anything on my legs. When I stop for the night I put on some high loft over pants which keeps me warm and provides an environment that lets me get rid of any of the moisture that accumulated in the dryskin pants.

So now I have had a few beers in me and am willing to look at it in a different way so please bear with.
Please preface that I am talking about the more technical thin softshells and not the thick brushed fleece versions.

For softshell pants, do they keep the snow/water from getting through when hiking through snow? Literally through it. 8"+ deep. I understand they do well while snowshoeing, skiing and climbing but then again my regular hiking convertible pants might do as well in these conditions also. How does this, their wind resistance and their breathability compare to regular hiking synthetic pants? I am also understanding that quite a few others are using theirs with wind pants. How does this hold up with walking through snow or a heavy rain? Do they make a convertible softshell version?

As for a top. I use a DriDucks Jacket or a windshirt plus an insulating layer. I don't climb. How would this do better?

I am trying to keep an open mind but have to see how these benefit me or anyone else more in a layering system.

Okay, here is how I am doing my layering now. How can softshell benefit me and what should I look at? I need the system to go form 95F to -20t o- 25F with the wind chill with regular run-of-the-mill hiking.

Top
Pat Cap 2 SS
Pat Cap 2 LS
DriDucks Jacket
Patagonia Micro Puff Pullover and/or Cabelas XLT Down Jacket

Bottom
Trunk
Pat Cap 2
TNF Meridian convertible hiking pants
DriDucks bottoms
Montbell Thermawrap

Hey Brett – that range is pretty wide. Can we eliminate the windchill and just get the temps you want? People will probably strongly disagree with me here, but i don't believe in windchill…it is easily overcome.

I agree with Steve on this one. Windchill is apparent temp on exposed skin.

That's a wide temp range without gaining some significant altitude. What sort of weather are we talking?

Rod

Usually around here and the places I go to it gets to 0F but -10/-20F is not unheard of once in a great while. While most of the stuff I will be doing stops at freezing I still would like to be able to go out on those cold winter days for a stretch if I feel like it. The highs have tapped down to about the mid 90s in the summer. It has rained around here for 3-4 hours at a time hard during the summer and then sprinkled the rest of the day. Usually lets up after a day. Some years it snow, some it doesn't. Sometime you get 3-4" over the year, sometimes 8'with 2 of it being over a period of days. Sorry but those are what the conditions are around where I live and recreate. I am not specifying a specific time of the year because I go out in all of it and the layering system needs to reflect that and not have redundancy. What else would you like to know?

Hi Rod

> Schoeller Dryskin pants are acceptable from 15C down.
Fair enough. We normally stick with our Taslan 'bushwhacking' trousers down to about 0 C. Could be habit of course. We only wear a hardshell under *very* wet conditions, and then it is probably our ponchos.

Shorts? In our Wollemi scrub? No thanks! We end up scratched quite enough as it is.

Cheers

Hi Brett

> I am talking about the more technical thin softshells and not the thick brushed fleece versions
I am slightly confused here. By 'thin softshells' are you really talking about material like that used in windshirts?

cheers

Brett-

In response to your question about hiking through snow in a softshell it really depends on which softshell pants you are wearing. Some will keep you bone dry, others will leak like a sieve. For example, I have a heavier weight pair of Millet brand softshell pants that have never gotten me wet whether I was from hiking through waist deep powder or being soaked by wet, sloppy couloirs in colorado's front range in the spring time. I have also worn them biking in an absolute downpour for 45 minutes and not a hint of moisture on the inside.

On the other hand the lighter sofshells such as some by arcteryx have gotten me wet or damp but definitely not soaked.

Overall I think softshell pants really shine because they are comfortable next to the skin(which I think nylon pack pants are not), fight off the weather fairly well, also, they allow a great range of motion and best of all they eliminate a lot of layers that I personally find a PITA. With these important factors I find them for my own system superior to any shell or pack pant on the market.

I should additionally say that my legs rarely get cold so it helps this low layer system work for me.

I was able to wrangle up a pair of Patagonia Jackalopes for cheap to try out. They seem to be breathable, durable, and pretty water resistant. Really haven't had a chance yet to test out the wind resistance but they should work with a pair of Pat Cap 2 tights down to a good temp. Does anyone make a pair of side zip wind pants as I wear size 14/15 shoe and most pants that have that 12" ankle zipper do not have enough clearance room for me to get them off and on and I end up having to take my shoes/boots off and on anyways. Or I guess I could just make a garbage bag kilt again.

My initial comment about them being a fashion item highlights the importance of climate. I can't think of any time of year when I could guarantee that it wouldn't rain in the Southern Alps. So to me, I just don't see a use for softshells. Many of you live or play in areas that have guaranteed cold dry weather, and in those climates it seems softshells come into their own.

A lot of people do use softshells around here, but they are not UL hikers. They are your mainstream Kiwis who fully expect to carry loads of 20kg or more, and will be carrying a softshell, a rain shell, a fleece layer, and the kitchen sink. So for me it's not a question of whether or not softshells are useful, just a question of minimising weight in an unpredicatble climate!