My WT Epic Hooded — mild disappointment

[Ian Schumann]

I took advantage of a brief change of venue to test out the water-resistance of the Wild Things Epic hooded windshirt I've had for a few months. This morning in Ann Arbor MI, the sky dumped a moderate-to-serious drizzle for several hours.

So, I suited up and walked around for half an hour, on flat ground and with low exertion. Temps were in the upper 50s, so internal condensation was *not* an issue.

Here's what happened:
The thing wetted out! I thought Epic was supposed to be very hydrophobic due to fiber encapsulation . . . but after just a few minutes of walking, first the bunched-fabric above my wrist soaked through, then higher up my arm, and so on. When the rain picked up, I started getting noticeably wet inside (and I recognize that this is because I need to seal up the shoulder seams), but once this started, within minutes the whole top half of the jacket had truly *wet out*. I didn't understand it.

I came back inside, shook off, spread the jacket out over a chair, and 40 minutes later the thing was still a little damp.

Isn't this *not* what Epic is supposed to do? I was very disappointed. My Patagonia Continental pants that I was wearing didn't wet out at all, and were almost completely dry the minute I stepped inside. Of course, they have a fresh DWR . . . but shouldn't Epic be competitive with that?

Commentary needed. This was the weather-protection piece that I was planning on taking on my upcoming year traveling round-the-world, but now I'm wondering if I should rethink my choice. I've heard great things about the Ready Mix . . .

Anyway, help me out, thanks.

[Art Sandt]

You can always test waterproofness in the shower, or with a hose. Try a couple tests indoors using the sink to see, if you can "cup" the fabric to hold a puddle of water, how long before the fabric wets out.

[Blue _]

Ian,
I think Art is right; your next step should probably be to test the fabric under more controlled conditions using a shower or a hose. You also might want to try seam-sealing the jacket even though this doesn’t seem to be the primary problem. Once water gets under the “skin” of a garment it can sometimes seem to show up in unexpected places. I once got a really nice rain jacket from my brother because he was convinced that the fabric was at fault—and when I wore it I could have sworn he was right—but after I sealed the appropriate seams the problem went away (it wasn’t an EPIC fabric garment, though). I’ve since wondered if once the water got in through the seams of my brother’s jacket it didn’t wick around until it reached a point where it “pooled” and made me aware of being wet, a feeling which spread as more water entered at the seams, until it felt like all of the fabric was failing to shed water. It may be a long shot, but would be a shame to ditch the jacket before you’ve given it a try. Good luck.

And btw, what a great chance, traveling around the world for a year, I mean. I hope you share some of your experiences when you’re done.

LIBERTAS+PAX PACIS

[Mark Verber]

I would encourage you to think about a EPIC shirt as a very durable unlined windshirt, not as serious rain gear. If you are in cold conditions, a pile jacket + EPIC might work reasonably well at keeping you warm, but I won't expect to be fully dry.

Your experience is worse than mine, but not that far off. For me, EPIC survived (didn't fully wet out) around 10-15 minutes in a real rain, ~1 hour in light rain, and a few hours in a misting / light drizzle. Like you, I found the wrists where the first to go.

As to drying time… I would expect it to be a bit damp laying on a chair for 40 minutes. My experience is that if you were wearing it out of the rain (could still have been cool) it would have been dry.

As to thinking about the Ready Mix… I don't think you would see significantly better water performance. The material in the Ready Mix is a close relative to EPIC.

People have suggested the shower / sink test. That can give you some insight, but I have found that real world is typically worse that the mostly static tests inside the house. Most likely because when I am hiking the fabric is moving, bunching in places, has pack straps which apply pressure, etc.

–Mark

[Blue _]

Thanks for the clarification about the EPIC capabilities, Mark. The official Nextec EPIC page notes that:

[EPIC fabrics are] “highly breathable fabrics that perform in every situation except those torrential deluges.”

Although, the Nextec product copy also concludes:

“If you're heading into a hurricane, by all means, throw on the hard shell. But if you're cross-country skiing, climbing a wind-scarred face or trekking a damp trail, the all-weather comfort of [the EPIC] soft shell is the call.”

I don’t own any EPIC clothing myself (although I’ve repeatedly considered the choice) . . . but somehow the marketing usually seemed to suggest that fabric would be a bit more robustly water resistant. While it seems as if Ian was walking through something that was less than a “deluge” but more than hiking a “damp trail” (and definitely not “heading into a hurricane”)—that all leaves quite a bit of room to wonder exactly what the user can really expect the EPIC fabric to handle. So, thanks again for giving a glimpse into your “real world” experience.

LIBERTAS+PAX PACIS

[Richard Nisley]

Ian,

Epic is a process that can be used to yield a wide range of different fabric characteristics. One type of Epic process fabric may wet out in the conditions you described whereas another would not. For example, the Epic characteristics used in the Special Forces PCU L4 windshirt does not wet out in the conditions you described.

Another factor is fabric soiling from dirt, oil, etc. for any Epic fabric type. This will significantly reduce the ability of the Epic fabric to repel water.

[Bryan Redd]

I learned the very first time I used my Golite Epic windshirt in a light rain that it provided very limited, and short-duration water protection. Indeed, I don't consider it as providing any protection, as it wets out almost instantly.

So, for me, it is a windshirt (and good at that function), but does not provide any functional protection from moisture.

Cheers,

Bryan

[Ian Schumann]

So, I'm going to see what happens when I seal the most obvious seams on my Epic jacket. I'll also wash it.
(not in that order)

Questions:
1) I do want to use the mineral-spirits trick with silnet for sealing up this jacket, right?
2) Anyone have good ideas regarding how I can get my jacket to be stretched out and taut while I'm sealing it? (This is important because if it's *not* taut while sealing, then I may tear the sealant when I put it on and stretch it out, right?)

Thanks.

[Ian Schumann]

Also, last night I held a panel of the jacket under my faucet and "cupped" about a half liter of water in the Epic. Under its own weight, the water didn't push through. When I bundled up the jacket a little and squeezed on the water, just a small amount of extra pressure was sufficient to push a swarm of droplets out through the bottom.

Of course, I don't know if this demonstrates anything really. I feel like I could probably do the same thing with a fresh DWR on my MB windshirt. 16 oz of water doesn't really generate a whole lot of pressure, I'm guessing. Right? Richard?

[Ian Schumann]

K, just now I did another field test. Earlier today I washed my Epic jacket with Sportsuds, in the hope that if my earlier disappointment was due to surface oils and other contaminants, at least now I would be able to rule it out. Then I took a walk around the block againa. This time, instead of a moderate drizzle (with no wind), the rain was a *light* drizzle with moderate wind pushing it around. I figure these two conditions, in terms of functional PSI, are probably about the same. Agreed?

The Problem

In 15 minutes, the jacket was almost dang-near totally wetted out, and was beginning to soak my poly t-shirt underneath. And this time the interior moisture didn't seem to be coming in waves, as though spurts were coming in through the top seams–nope, this time it just got gradually wetter and wetter all over.

The Other Problem

Here's another interesting (saddening) thing that the wind-driven rain demonstrated. When I took the jacket off a few minutes ago after coming inside, I studied the pattern of wetness on my poly t-shirt, and noticed that the front of the shirt, my chest (actually on either side, like my pecs), was actually closer to being soaked than my shoulders. Immediately I knew this was because for most of my little hike I had been walking into the wind, and so the rain was coming semi-horizontally right at me. But, the jacket doesn't have any seams in this area.

Conclusion

It seems like the only conclusion I'm left with is that the Epic fabric–just like some have testified–just isn't protecting like it's supposed to.

I would LOVE to hear a dissenting opinion from someone that can save this jacket for me, because I LOVE how low-maintenance Epic is supposed to be, how there's no DWR or membrane to worry about. I was looking forward to this jacket being my best friend in this coming year.

So, another request for help

Unless I hear some redemptive commentary from somebody, I think I must replace it, and fast. So, what I'm looking for in this niche:
1) Protects at least a little better than your garden variety DWR nylon
2) DOES NOT require DWR restoration all the time (because they don't sell ReviveX in Uganda)
3) Won't cling to my skin when it gets just a little damp
4) Breathable enough to use (at low exertion) up to maybe 60s or 70s F

Am I making the typical request for a miracle jacket? I hope not. I really thought that Epic was supposed to do all this for me. Really, what I want is a jacket that won't necessarily keep me bone-dry in a moderate warm-weather storm–I just want it to keep me comfortable.

[Richard Nisley]

Ian,

Test your unlaundered Epic in the shower until you feel the initial leak points. Mark their locations by taking a picture or writing down the locations. If they are not on a seam or at the zipper, they are attributable to an EPIC weave that is too porous for heavy drizzle or a soiling of the Epic.

Wash your Epic in detergent, double rinse it, and dry it at medium heat for 60 minutes. Use your shower for a strong rain simulation to again test for leak points. If they are in the same initial non-seam points, go with another option for your year long trip. For close weave EPIC there are typically only a couple of spots plus the front zipper (if not covered by a flap) that will leak readily in a shower test. The typical spots are the garment tag, the hang loop, and the zipper. Use a small amount of McNett SilNet to provide a narrow light seal to these small initial leak points. If the fabric zipper is what is causing the leak, cover the complete inside zipper with SilNet. Don’t worry if you get SilNet in the zipper teeth. The zipper will still work after the SilNet dries. Any SilNet on the teeth just flakes off when you operate the zipper.

After 24 hours for the SilNet to dry, test the Epic in the shower again. The shower simulates rain and even dense weave Epic is only rated for showers. None the less, you should be able to get at least 5 minutes of shower simulated rain protection. This test should translate to all day drizzle protection while moving.

[Richard Nisley]

Ian,

You are located in Central Texas. Ike, a major hurricane just passed through Central Texas. The problem with your Epic may be the definition of drizzle. How did your jacket fair in the more benign shower test?

[P S]

First, make sure to rinse very well after washing the jacket. Soap will create conduits for water to quickly soak through.

Second, while EPIC is a good fabric, it is inconsistent. The fabric is heated and stretched while a viscous polymer is pressed into it, then the fabric is released. When released, the excess polymer fills in the interstices of the fibers. While Nextec does a great job to keep the amount of polymer consistent, it nevertheless is almost random how much will fill each interstice. If you look at cross sections under a microscope, some will be filled completely while others only partially. It basically creates a very light barrier (less than 1,000 mmH2O resistance, generally), but may have spots where it's less (100 – 200mmH20). A raindrop falling at moderate speeds will be able to break areas of an EPIC jacket.

While some swear by the fabric for light rain, I dislike it. It creates a barrier that drastically reduces breathability yet doesn't stop moderate rain. The trade off for me is not worth it. Those who love the Patagonia Houdini will disagree with me, as the Patagonia Deluge DWR is EPIC (maybe a thinner EPIC? I'm not sure).

[Inaki Diaz de Etura]

Peter, that's great info. I love being able to understand why things are the way they are.

I've met quite a few people on the trail who claimed their Epic gear failed when it wetted through in the rain. They were probably expecting too much from it and I guess the description from Nextec didn't help.

[Ian Schumann]

All this is interesting, and seems to line up with my recent experience.

BUT, the first time I ever wore this jacket was walking around the block in Austin during an absolute deluge, and I was blown away by its water-resistance! Hardly any water at all came through in 10 minutes of walking around, so I really thought I was set!

Since then the jacket has been used just a few times around town (not in the rain) and once on a week-long backpacking trip where it was subjected to some sweat but no rain. I didn't know that the water resistance had gotten so bad until these tests I've done in the last few days.

I just now remembered that first excellent test run, and so this has me thinking: what happened? My only thought is that the jacket must have gotten soiled, but I've washed the jacket since then (albeit by hand) with Sportsuds. There wasn't an improvement.

Granted, I still haven't taken Richard's suggestion of throwing it in the washing-machine and then drying it thoroughly–BUT even if this is the case, and the whole culprit here is just soiling of the fabric . . . what terrible soil-resistance! One backpacking trip and the barrier craps out on me until I clean it again? Epic is marketed to be a whole lot better than that. This makes me strongly lean toward replacing the jacket with something lower maintenance and more reliable–probably this means a hard shell.

[Ian Schumann]

I have to ask, does anyone have any suggestions regarding the preferences for a weather shell that I listed a couple of posts ago? I'm currently wondering about:
– Golite Paradigm
– Outdoor Research Revel
– Montbell Peak

Obviously, the Peak will be quite a bit more breathable than the others, and a little lighter I think, but also twice as expensive. I gleaned from an earlier post from Richard about Pertex Shield that the Trinity fabric in the Paradigm should be similar in breathability to the Revel, BUT (this is for Richard) in that post you also said that this breathability was on par with Epic nylon. Now this doesn't sound right to me at all–in a previous post where I was asking about encapsulated fabrics, you sent me a table indicating that Epic would be roughly as breathable as eVent . . . right? Can you clear that up, Richard?

These are my current options for hard shells, but I'd love to hear about any more options for non-hard shells people might have used that provided some protection without needing their DWRs restored after every few showers. Can anyone help? I'd love to find a lightweight, lined soft shell like Cloudveil's Prospector series, but I've heard that Inertia's longevity for water resistance isn't incredible.

Any other suggestions, either for hard shells or other? Thanks friends.

[t.darrah]

Ian, I have a Patagonia "Stretch Element" jacket in size medium, color blue that I will give to you free for your upcoming journey/adventure. The jacket is in excellent condition and is very durable. It's not the lightest hardshell available at 19 oz but it will keep you dry. The medium is a trim athletic fit but will accommodate light layers.

If interested let me know, just know that I will not be offended if you choose to not take me up on this offer.

[Ian Schumann]

Thom–wow, thanks! What an offer! Is there a reason you're willing to part with it? Too heavy for you?

I'm definitely intrigued by the offer. Even though the thing is heavier than I'm looking for, it's an offer for free when I'm already strapped for cash, AND it's a Patty top-o-the-line thing, so . . . could you tell me about the piece a little more? What year is it from? What condition is it in? How well has it served you? Are the seams welded? And for the sake of fit–could you describe your body type and shape to me, and tell me how the jacket fits you?

Otherwise, I did one final test with my Epic jacket, with very interesting results. Having already washed the jacket recently, I threw it in the dryer for an hour on medium heat, per Richard's suggestion. I just did another shower test, and the water repellency of this thing has been greatly restored! Wet-out pattern after a few minutes is now decidedly concentrated around the seams (except for the lower arms, which seem to wet out quickly regardless of anything else–why?). Otherwise, wetting-out was minimal, and beading up of water was very good. This matches what I originally experienced in that storm in Austin!

Now, the question is: what gives? How did the jacket become soiled so easily, and can I rely on this thing on my voyage? I won't have frequent access to a dryer–maybe once a month. Can somebody explain to me a little better WHY this application of heat does anything, and how I can prevent the jacket from losing its repellency so quickly?

[t.darrah]

Ian,
The Patagonia Stretch Element is two years old but as stated earlier is in like new condition. I prefer my Arcteryx Alpha SL hardshell so this jacket has seen very limited use. The jacket looks identical to the version currently shown on the Patagonia site, the only difference as I can tell is that the version I have is sewn and micro taped, not bonded like the currant version. Also mine has a more pronounced dropped back for added coverage.

This may be a heavier shell then you want to carry but my offer stands. I will post it, the jacket, for sale with additional items this week if you select to not except the offer.

I have the Wildthings epic wind shell(unhooded)and like mine a lot. I use it as a wind shell and very light rain (mist) and in these conditions I've been pleased with the performance of this garment.

[Richard Nisley]

Ian,

The bottom of jacket arms and the bottom of pant legs typically get the most dirt contamination and are the first to wet out. Your jacket arms still aren't clean.

Sport Suds advanced formula is a liquid that GENTLY cleans clothes and rinses completely, leaving no residue behind. That type of liquid soap is designed to preserve the DWR used on WPB fabrics but not EPIC.

To restore maximum repellency with EPIC, you must use powdered detergent (not liquid soap) in combination with a warm water machine cycle. Double rinse the jacket to remove all residues. The dryer cycle recoats fiber surfaces where the outer surface coating has been abraded.

For wind and drizzle repellency during long field trips, just rinse off the grime periodically. You should be OK in between the formal wash/dry procedure that brings the material back to like new.

[Nicholas Couis]

Hi Richard, Thanks for that info about washing epic.I like epic but made the same mistake of washing in sportswash.I now have the Patagonia Houdini and am very happy with the performance for R.T.W. trips.The DWR of other jackets etc just doesn't last long enough for long term trips and the retreatment products are not too good.The dryer definately helps.

[Ian Schumann]

Richard–thanks for bearing with me, and restating info that's probably been written out a dozen times in different threads already. I appreciate your help.

One more question for you, or anybody: after I SilNet my Epic jacket / SeamGrip my Montbell pants, and down the road I want to wash-and-dry them for restoring their water resistance . . . do I need to change any of that process for the sake of the seam sealant? Are SilNet and SeamGrip okay in the dryer?

Thanks, for the nth time.

[David Wills]

I have had a very similar experience with my Liberty ridge suit I made from thru-hiker epic. The jacket definitely wet out before the pants did though due to exposure levels differing for jackets and pants. I don't use the jacket much because of this, but have found the pants to be very suitable for most conditions as primary rainwear. They are much more durable and pack smaller than my Dri Ducks, and hardly ever wet out. I stick with the Dri Ducks jacket though, because it is very waterproof and doesn't get as much abuse as pants.

[Richard Nisley]

I dry both at medium heat without problems.

[Linsey Budden]

While I've seen new Epic bead up water, I'm convinced that anything but brand new Epic is absolute crap. Last week in a pair of FF rental down pants, I lightly brushed up against a wet surface and the fabric immediately soaked thru. Most of the FF employees will endlessly tout the virtues of this fabric which makes my Todd (also a FF employee) cringe because he knows Epic is crap. Anybody who raves about Epic's waterproofness obviously never gets out in the rain.

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