AT Speed Record Attempt

[Bill Fornshell]

This is next

Open AT to ATV's
and in a few years I will be able to Thru-Hike the AT driving a SUL modified Hummer.

Running on a trail accelerates trail erosion.

[Joshua Gilbert]

I think the comparison of someone running down a trail, under their own power, with the possibility of someone who is disabled using a specially modified atv is disengenious, at best. Is increased speed some sort of gateway drug, that will cause us to need to move faster and faster until we use some rocket powered rollerskates to send us hurtling down the trail? seems doubtful.

While the hyperbole of a record attempt on the A.T. is not particularly interesting to me, as a trail runner and hiker, the idea that me running down the trail is somehow not in the "spirit of the trail" whatever that means,strikes me as completely silly. The argument that running increases trail erosion, well, maybe somewhere there is some sort of explanation that might lend credence to that theory (physics of incresed impact or something)I can't begin to imagine that the impact is so much greater that it is a problem. One trail runner, or 100 hikers, which contributes more? There certainly are fewer runners out there.

really, this is a strange sort of argument. Sometimes, when my wife and I hike, we start running, because we like to run, sometimes when we are running, we stop and walk and look at at birds or wildflowers. If you narrow your definition of what is okay for people to do on the trail, you start having strange ethical arguments with yourself, or writing long, rambling posts on line.

Another contributer to erosion? Rain. Maybe we should put a roof over the trail.

[John S.]

Bill, if "they" start allowing ATV's on the AT, it'll be time to pull out the carbon stock/titanium barrelled AK47 and go on patrol, eh?

About that trail running/erosion stuff. What about fat hikers stomping along on the trail and their erosion? Should we have a weight limit to hike the AT?

[John Brochu]

>>> Running on a trail accelerates trail erosion.

Man, I'm gonna try this line on my hiking partners next time I can't keep up with them…. "Hey, slow down you losers, you're all causing excessive erosion…!"

Bill, do you hike during or after it rains?

[John S.]

John Brochu is onto something. I'd have to say that hiking in wet weather/mud would cause alot more trail damage than trail running in dry weather.

[Bill Fornshell]

As a trail maintainer for several years I was able to watch the erosion on my section of trail on a monthly bases from the effects of trail runners.

I was part of a small group that would run on my section and other nearby trail sections. This was a hilly section of trail and we were pounding the rock base lose and when it rained the water carried the lose dirt away. Then the rocks were pushed off the trail by our running and the erosion cycle started over.

After a few months I could see the damage we were doing and we stopped.

Become a trail maintainer or help a trail maintainer every month for a year and you may wake up to what accelerates trail erosion.

[Joshua Gilbert]

One piece of anecdotal evidence from one region of the country does not make a universal truth.

Trails erode. Trail use, at whatever speed helps accelerate that erosion, true, but trails are there for use, by definition. If foot powered traffic is allowed on a trail, then the speed of said traffic is immaterial. Plenty of places are incredibly eroded without much trailrunner traffic (adirondak park for example)

A lot of people on this site have done trail maintinence, myself included. I volunteered my time, and as long as someone wasn't riding a motorcycle down the trail, I can't say that their speed was a problem for me or for the trail.

[todd]

Joshua,

While speed itself probably won't increase erosion, think about this: weight (downward force) can.

I mean…which causes more impact for you: walking down a hill or running down it? Your feet hit harder running, and that DOES / CAN increase erosion.

FWIW…Todd

[Linsey Budden]

You wouldn't believe what horse traffic does to a trail in the wet Cascades–I've seen giant mudbogs on parts of the PCT and other area trails which I hope I rightly cross thru instead of skirting the edges of.

[Jesse Glover]

Sure running causes erosion. So does walking. Don't forget trekking poles and fat people or guys with 60 lb packs. How about having a security guard at every trailhead that makes sure that the only ultralight hikers get on the trail, we could even have low impact shoe rental like the bowling alley.

[Joshua Gilbert]

Todd,
I'm sure that running does increase impact (what is it force= mass x acceleration or something?) what I was really responding to was the idea that trail running should be banned because of the damage it does to the trail, and the wish for bodily harm on trail runners expressed on another thread.

I don't think you can ban a user group who is following the law (being self propelled), just based on their speed.

[Jesse Glover]

So the theory is running causes more erosion per step than walking? Don't you take bigger strides when running causing less steps per mile and possibly less or equal the amount of erosion as an average hiker?

[George Matthews]

LOL. How can the AT have a speed record when the "track" changes so often. The distance changes due to trail relocations. How about weather? In real running, not only are distances carefully measured, too much wind voids a record.

Maybe like baseball records, you put an asterisk by the number. That'll work.

Possibly you could compute a 'milesHiked / Days' ratio and compare to others. For that matter, you could hike a Manhattan block in a loop until you do 2,175 miles. If you do it in 46 days, then you have the AT Speed Record with an asterisk that notes that you were not actually on the AT.

I wish Karl good luck. We'll break the news to him about the asterisk after he completes his journey.

Earlier John Muir was mentioned. He is asterisk-less. The pure essence of wilderness adventure was why he went walking.

[Dave T]

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[Chad Miller]

Elizabeth Rothman wrote:

“Chad, your responses especially seem to reflect that you have taken this all a bit personally. Relax. I believe you, he and all of us have a right to do what we want as long as it doesn't damage the resource or disturb anyone else. I reserve the right to find some choices personally distasteful, and to discuss the choice and my response in a civil manner with mature fellow hikers (of any age).”

Sorry I wasn’t able to respond to this sooner but I was out backpacking. Elizabeth you are right that I am taking this personally. However I am not questioning yours or Brett’s philosophy on backpacking.

What I am doing is disagreeing with the way you two have stubbornly shown complete intolerance for other people’s opinions and style of hiking. That in it of itself is bigotry and I take bigotry very personally.

I do not care how fast you hike or run on a trail. I don’t care if you’re supported by a team of people or you’re doing the whole trail without even a food drop. As many people in this discussion have stated HYOH and have fun doing it!

I’ve backpacked various distances and various speeds; all of my trips where fun and I enjoyed myself greatly. Take this last trip for example; I hiked 90 miles in four days and had a great time! Some may say that my mileage was fast, some may say that it was average. But for you to say that I did it wrong and need to do it like you in order to do it right and gain enjoyment out of my hike is simply mind boggling and incredibly self centered.

I am sorry if you think that this discussion was not done in a civil manor. I in no way attacked you or Brett personally. I simply voiced my disagreement for your attitude towards different hiking styles.

[Richard Matthews]

" Take this last trip for example; I hiked 90 miles in four days…" Chad, you are a pokey hiker – Just kidding.

Sometimes I am not satisfied with my own style. Often I will hike the same route, but camp at different places, hike in reverse order, or change the pace. I have hiked areas with a sense of urgency to make my miles that I later go back and slowly savor. Those great camping spots that I passed just after lunch are fit into the next hike.

I have come to think of the fast trips as scouting trips for the real hike later. HYOH, but hike!

[derek parsons]

quote "I'm sure that running does increase impact (what is it force= mass x acceleration or something?) what I was really responding to was the idea that trail running should be banned because of the damage it does to the trail, and the wish for bodily harm on trail runners expressed on another thread." end quote

i wouldn't even give him that. i posted in the other thread and have the same sentiments as others.

i trail run and backpack. i generally always backpack a trail first before running (to see the site, enjoy the solitude, and menatlly map the trail so when i run it, i have an idea of the layout). when i run, i carry less weigth, my shoes weigh less, my strides are longer, and i leave less of an imprint. when i backpack the weight of the pack, boots, etc shortens my stride and each step is heavier leaving a larger imprint (and scattering more debris, hence, trail erosion).

i've maitained trails as well and do not see any evidence that trail running is more damaging to the trail than backpacking.

trails will erode. to argue trail running impacts the trail more/less than backpacking is almost a moot point. they both do. and the comment that somehow atvs will be allowed in the at in relation to allowing trail running is pure jokes. i'm not even sure how you'd begin to even connect the two.

i didn't know there was such a disconnect between some backpackers and trail runners south of the border. generally on trails on ontario, alberta, and bc; you'll see both and we all seem to get along. sure i've heard the comments from quasi-luddites that when i'm running a trail i'm missing out (i didn't know nature had a speed limit, other than the speed of light), but generally when i tell i've already backpacked it, seen the sites, and wanted to enjoy the trail differently my second time around, they're normally stumped.

[Bob Bankhead]

It's all over, folks. A lower leg injury on day 6 has done it. See http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=40337

[Timothy Hortberg]

Karl actually made it to day 15 before he made the wise decision to pause and evaluate his condition. He has tendonitis caused by compensating for the pain of trench foot.
He is taking it day by day and hopes to get back on the trail soon. He is optimistic and plans on finishing even though he most likely will not get the record. (paraphrased from the Whereskarl website) I think Karl is making wise choices and I wish him the best of luck in finishing this year and with his next attempt.

I have read the posts so far and really find the negative posts disheartening.

I think we should be more supportive of everyone that is chasing their dreams. I know I would like the support.

[W I S N E R !]

I say more power to him for following a dream and getting out to do it, success or not. Having simply tried, having pushed as hard as he could, is more than many will ever experience.

So what's everyone's take on Andrew Skurka then? He seems to be somewhat of a hero around here (for the record, I have nothing but the utmost respect for what he does as a backpacker and an athlete, if I could only do half as much…). He hikes pretty fast in my book, does lectures, slide shows, runs a nice website that chronicles his deeds, definitely has a fairly active PR campaign going…Yet I've seen no criticism of him so far.

This idea I've seen come up that if you tell anyone about what you've done then you're somehow spoiling it, that your motives are now less pure, is plain silly. If you want to share, share. If that's not you, no problem- don't. Nobody has to visit websites or pay any attention to what these people are doing…Most people don't.

I'm an artist (I see this as the same)- I create things because it's what I do…Now what's the point if I horde my work, if I never share? I would make art regardless, but what if my creations will inspire others? Make someone happy? Make a child go "Wow!". Does it hurt to try? Am I selfish because I admit that it feels great when someone tells you that they love what you do?
The same goes for all these hikers- if long and slow inspires you, great…

But please don't shoot down those that do it different. They are all a source of inspiration to me and many others, inspiration to run harder, eat better, train more, and ultimately, become a better, stronger person.

[Dave T]

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[Randall Dee]

"nah, i'm sure if john muir was around now he'd have a myspace, facebook, and a web page at http://www.john-muir-rules.com. you'd log onto his web page to get an online journal of all the cool things john muir has done lately, and how thin of a blanket and how suprisingly few hardtack biscuits he carried on his latest super-hard, super-rewarding, super-extreme hike john muir did to experience his true john-muir-ness…………."

Now that right there is funny! I wanna go hiking with Dave.

Dave, if you're ever in Portland, at least let me buy you a beer.

[A. B.]

Hmmm. Complain about someone commercializing the sport on a website that commercializes the sport.

[Brian Turner]

I typically find people who lack the ability to do a speed hike are the ones who complain about them the most. Why do you care how someone else is hiking? Focus on your own hike.

Hiking the trail in 47 days is not a big deal, it's a HUGE deal.

[Shawn Basil]

There is a strong chance Karl Meltzer will be back to attempt the record again within the next year or two, this time with firsthand experience on how to maximize mileage.

A start without massive rainfall to swell creeks and swamp the trail wouldn't hurt either. Karl learned some very good lessons and dealt with a fairly significant injury that cost him a full non-hiking day and still finished in 47 days. If he were only out to grandstand for the record, he wouldn't have bothered finishing at all. He has my respect.

Karl Meltzer offerred up his take on his hike here: http://karlmeltzer.com/?page_id=85

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