Layers layers layers

Hi Chris

You haven't mentioned either head gear or gloves. I think you will need both, especially when stopped.

I will be wearing either a wool or possum down beanie (both double back over the ears), and a pair of fleece gloves. I generally hate gloves, but in the backcountry I'd rather have than not, especially at such a low weight penalty if I decide that I don't need them.

There's something rather special about having wet hands in the wind in the snow country…

Since my experiences in snow country are very limited, that is something that I hadn't even considered. Gloves will definitely be with me.

Hi Chris.

What shelter are you planning on using? This will affect sleep and insulation layering choices.

Also, do you already own the No Sniveller and other layers, or are you starting from scratch?

If not, what are you using now?

The conditions you describe are pretty similar to what most Australians experience for winter bushwalking in the hills.

Rod

Christopher,

I dont' think you mentioned rain pants. At those temperatures and potential wet weather conditions, I always add rain pants in conjunction with a poncho.

I have a pair of Golite Reed at 6.7 oz with ankle zips and a pair of North Face at 13.0 oz with full leg zip, both size large. Both are proprietary waterproof/breathable fabrics.

I never wear these in warmer weather but hey, when it's cold I like to be dry!

I don't own any of these layers. But the No Sniveller will be a definite purchase because of the hammock. I'm going to need a quilt anyways (2 actually, 1 underquilt, 1 overquilt), and I was thinking that I may be able kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

@Michael

I didn't mention pants because I was holding off until a later discussion to talk about pants (and gloves and hat, etc).

However I agree that rain pants are likely to be a good thing. I'd hate to get caught in sleet and have icy pants. Rain and cold can't be a good thing, especially in the woods.

All that said, if I get caught in a rain/ice storm it will have been either a freak storm that came from nowhere, or horrible planning on my part. If good weather isn't expected, I'm in the living room with my family.

Christopher,

I live and hike in West Virginia. You will find the mountains colder than the lower elevations. Also, keeping warm in camp and when sleeping is a whole lot different than staying warm when hiking, especially when the hiking is uphill when it's really easy to be sweating even when it is cold out.

I find I need to carry more insulation to stay warm in camp than what you are proposing, but of course everyone's needs are different. If you are uncertain though, it is better to carry too much until you find out exactly what you can get by with than to need extra and to have none.

You may want to think hard about whether you want to use your quilt, which is going to provide your primary insulation while you are trying to sleep, to double as insulation you wear. As you say, precipitation is likelier to be rain than snow around here, and if you wait till there is zero chance of rain to backpack you might be waiting a long time… If you are counting on using your quilt as insulation in camp for cooking, bathroom trips, etc. you are risking getting your primary means of keeping warm through the night wet. That's a risk that I am unwilling to take, personally, given the chance of fall and winter rain in this area and the preponderance of wet bushes to brush up against…

I own the Montbell Down Inner Parka, and have found it to be an awesome jacket. Way more than a glorified fleece.

I have worn it around camp comfortably down to just above freezing with a light weight wool shirt, a chest warmer, and arm warmers. A mid-weight wool shirt should provide about the equivalent warmth. You can check BackpackGearTest.org for my (and others) review of it. It's one of the most versatile pieces I own, and I used it as part of my sleeping system this year, with a Nunatak Ghost quilt (customized with an ounce less down for warmer weather use).

As far as layering, if you find you need to use a vest with it, I think it might be better to size the vest to wear over the Parka rather than to have the jacket be larger, which would result in looser arms and hem that would let more cold air in if you want to use the Parka alone.

My suggestion for clothing for 20-40 degree weather would be a light weight wool layer, a mid-weight wool layer or light fleece shirt, and the Montbell Down Inner Parka. You might also consider the Warmfront Chest Warmer and ArmSkins arm warmers instead of the middle layer. You can read my review of these at BackpackGearTest.org also.

Chris,

My favorite hiking is in overcast with temps in the 30s along with a slight drizzle and/ or spitting snow. I wear only a thin poly base-layer under a lightweight rain or wind jacket while walking.I use poly or wool pants. If no precipitation nor wind I wear a poly mesh, short sleeve base under a lightweight wool shirt. This combo is very comfortable as long as I am moving. Stopping for a break to eat I will put on an extra layer, usually the wool shirt under the rain jacket if there is a drizzle, or if no precipitation, the wind or rain jacket over the wool shirt to rest . Anything heavier while hiking causes me to overheat and sweat excessively.

For camp, I am still developing the right combination and I believe I have achieved it with a set of Cocoon wear + a Montbell Inner jacket for added warmth on top. When climbing into a WM Versalite for the night I start off with just a medium weight merino layer and add to it if I wake up chili in the night.

Christopher,

While hiking I wear 1 or 2 wool shirts of appropriate weight for the temperature. If raining or windy, I add a poncho or windshirt,respectively.

In camp I wear a patagonia micropuff hooded jacket, and if necessary, over a down vest. As Pamela cautioned, this piece will be exposed somewhat to the elements while doing camp chores.

At the same time, especially with you being a hammocker, the no-snivler is an admirable example of multiuse efficiency! You had better have a darn good poncho with that. Also, you need to practice proceedures to doff & don the no-snivler in pouring rain without the benefit of a tent.

Here's a minor observation I worked out a few years ago.
It's a pain to have to have on X-amount of layers due to the cold but then sweat too much due to exertion.
I noticed a lot of heat building up on my arms so came up with the idea of wearing less long sleeved tops.
I also found that it's near impossible to buy short sleeve versions of heavier weight thermal layers. So I cut the sleeves off a long sleeve pullover top to reduce the amount of layers on my forearms. I made it into a short sleeve sothat the shoulders are still covered.
Now it is my favourite layer.
Think about this, you're standing around in jeans and a T-shirt and the weather turns cold, so you put on a shirt. But it gets colder so you put on a sweater, then a warm jacket, and that's fine. But you still only have jeans on because your legs can handle the cold, and so can the forearms but we mainly need to protect our trunk (is that word still used?). So if your out humping it in cold weather you need to keep your body warm but you may need your forearms and legs to be able to dispel excess heat build up created from the workload.
I think two short sleeve layers with two long sleeve layers is so much better then 4 long sleeve layers.

Ian,

You may like to check out GroundEffect (.com) from NZ. They have some nice sleeveless Merino/Syn mix tops, including one with a windproof front.

Rod

The Scottish Highlands are usually a mix of wet and cold in winter, but we do get cold/dry spells. For cold (below freezing) and dry, i wear a long-sleeved merino base under a 100 weight fleece whilst active. I carry a lightweight windtop, E-vent waterproof and spare insulating layer. These are added when needed.
For cold and wet i wear the long sleeve merino base under a Paramo Aspira Smock. The smock has plenty of ventilation options. I carry a spare insulating layer.
Most of my walking involves daily climbs of around 3,000ft, so the temperature and condition can vary greatly. Above freezing blue skies to well below freezing high wind blizzards within a few hours isn't uncommon.

Sound good Rob (or was it Rod !?!) I'll checjk it out.

I've been doing lots of reading and asking questions about layering and have tinkered the list a bit in hopes of pinning it down before making purchases. The only purchase which is imminent is the thermawrap because I can use that now.

These are top layers only.

Baselayer(s):Threshold Ringer T (Microweight short sleeved T from Smartwool) with a NTS Combo 1/2 Zip (Lightweight torso with Microweight sleeves).

Mid-Layer: Montbell Thermawrap Vest

Wind: GoLite Ether Wind Jacket OR Montbell UL Wind Parka (Will I even need a wind cover with the thermawrap? I'm thinking yes, because it's a vest. But don't want to carry redundant gear if I needn't).

High-loft Layer: Not sure yet. Any suggestions? I'd like down.

Rain: Coughlan's Emergency Poncho

My main concern is whether the poncho, which could certainly have durability issues, will be adequate enough, or whether I would want something like a Patagonia Rain Shadow Jacket (or something similar). The other concern is that all of these purchases, save the $.88 poncho, have yet to be made which means that I'm looking at ~$500 on layers.

Hi Christopher,

Personally I would be cold at night with just that quilt, and no down jacket on.

Montbell UL down inner looks nice, but IMO I think that it's so light that it's warmth/weight ratio starts to suffer: you start to end up having quite a small amount of down with relation to the amount of lining you have (which you can't really change). I opted for the Montbell Alpine Light jacket (not hooded – looked too heavy+complicated), which has a better weight/warmth ratio, and for not too much extra weight quite a bit warmer.

Montbell are good quality and are easy to find on discount. Other options as you've mentioned: Patagonia (not cheap, not ultralight), Western Mountaineering (not cheap, but everyone seems to love them).

Someone mentioned layering a vest on top – both the MB Thermawrap & R2 Vest are nice and trim for cutting out wind & wearing under a shell. I don't think you'd want to try and put either over the top of a puffy jacket, both are thin enough that it should fit under a down jacket no problems.

Keep in mind that if you're planning to hike in the Thermawrap that it's not durable (both shell + fill) and will absorb a lot of water when it gets wet. Whereas a fleece vest like the R2 is bulletproof and absorbs very little water, if heavier and not as warm.

Base layer is all a matter of taste, but I find anything other than the thinnest merino tops too heavy & absorb too much water. Could consider synthetic for your second baselayer to save weight and perhaps cheaper also.

I guess you must have more stable+dry weather, but personally when it's that cold I'd have a dedicated rain shell instead of windshirt + poncho, because I end up wearing it much of the time.

Although not as cheap as your poncho, you can get some good rain jackets for $60-80 USD, eg Golite Virga, which also means you could skip the wind shirt/jacket.

But I'm sure the poncho would get you out there!

I'm more leaning towards a breathable/waterproof jacket (like the eVent Thru Hiker Jacket or Montbell Peak Shell), and scratching the wind jacket. It will also be cheaper/same price as the two combined but I get 1 solid piece of kit. And it saves on weight, volume, and provides me with a good piece of dual use gear. Excellent.

I am concerned about durability in the thermawrap, but I have read that it is reasonably durable. Perhaps that's just people justifying the price to themselves?

I do like the R2 very much as well because, as you said, it is certainly durable, but there is a 5+ oz penalty (although it may well be worth it because of its almost invincibility). That said, here is the SE US (I'm in central Kentucky), daytime (read: hiking) temps when I would be on the move are likely not cold enough to hike with a mid layer much past leaving camp. It's only the rare day that we don't rise above freezing, and it's around freezing that I need to put on my second layer while on the move.

I too agree with the jacket over vest, rather than vest over jacket approach, and that is the way I will be planning.

Revised Layers (yet again):

Baselayer:
Microweight Smartwool SHort Sleeve T
Mixed Weight 1/2 Zip Long Sleeve T

Thermawrap Vest OR R2 Vest (I'm trying to decide between weight and durability)

Wind/Rain: eVent Thru Hiker Jacket or , Montbell Peak Shell.

High-loft: Don't yet know. Hopefully Something down

Cheapie Poncho for on the move rain and pack coverage.

Chris,
For the conditions you describe, I think the JRB quilt as jacket for evenings/mornings would work very well. I also hammock camp and use the JRB quilts as you are planning to do. In those temperatures you certainly won't be hiking in it and it is a nice piece of multi-function gear for around camp. I love mine.

Of course, take care to keep it dry as you would for any down product.

If it were me, I would certainly give it a try before purchasing a separate down toplayer.

Try this:

Short Sleeve T
Pat Cap 3 1/2 Zip Long Sleeve T or R1
DriDucks Rain Jacket
Pat MicroPuff Pullover or simple down jacket like Cabelas

I have an R2 jacket. If you wear it with the ss and ls on you will roast in it unless the wind is howling.

>Short Sleeve T
For a stink free first layer you should try BPL UL Merino.

>Pat Cap 3 1/2 Zip Long Sleeve T or R1

Why not cap4?

Cap 4 is 5.3oz Polartec Power Dry, and
R1 is 6.5oz Polartec Power Dry.

I think cap 4 would be more versatile, cheaper and lighter.

For a cheap layer that will dry fast in cold conditions you should use a wicking layer. For me wool still stinks a little.

You get a Cap 3 if you are warm sleeper and a R1 if you are a cold sleeper. I have noticed there is little difference in the amount of warmth you get between Cap 1 and 2 or Cap 3 and 4 but for some reason there is significantly noticeable jump from Cap 2 to 3.

>Thermawrap Vest OR R2 Vest (I'm trying to decide between weight and durability)

It's not just a matter of durability: you _really_ wouldn't want to be walking all day in rain wearing a synthetic fill vest. See http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/wet_weather_performance_down_vs_synth_vests.html – the Patagonia Puffball is a similar vest to the Thermawrap, and it absorbed more than 3.5x it's own weight in water when dunked (and more than the down vest).

Also regardless of the shell fabric durability (it's similar to a windshirt) your pack straps are going to crush the synthetic fill on the shoulders.