Debunking the Myth: Quilts AREN’T as Comfortable as a Sleeping Bag

[George Matthews]

Possible sleeping conversions…

The Batty – Hanging upside down from a limb

The Horsey – Standing during sleep

At Work – hand on mouse, head facing screen, trying not to snore

As for sleeping on your back, you can train yourself to do this easily by doing so at home. I did this last winter. When backpacking I start sleeping on my back. I still switch to one side on another for awhile when I wake up, but it is not a problem using quilts. My favorites are the No Sniveller (JacksRBetter.com) and also the 2Thirds XP Quilt (MountainLaurelDesigns.com) with Cocoon Hoody. They work fine FOR ME. But could be fatal for others.

[te – wa]

ha! of course they do.
so much fuss from the ground dwellers over which is better… I can tell you this, when it comes to hammocks, quilts OWN. Mummy use in a hammock is a PITA – that is one wrestling match im not interested in joining.

[David Wills]

very true. i still prefer quilts to sleeping bags any day (above 20*). I probably never would have switched to topbags if I had replaced my 2nd broken silk hammock from a year ago. looking at those bridge hammocks that have come about in the past few months makes a fabric order that much more appealing. The problem is, $40 for hammock fabric and bug netting would also lead to the $300 obligatory summer/winter over/underquilt setup and a few weeks at the sewing machine, or even worse- taking apart my topbags!

[Christopher Chupka]

I will not give up my quilts.

I have used my Arc Specialist from about 50 down to about 10 degrees with layering, including my Skaha Plus. I have used my 4 oz overfilled Arc Alpinist down to Zero with minimal layering in my BD Firstlight. Minimal layering is thermal top and bottoms, R1 Hoody and Cocoon Balaclava. A sub 2 pound quilt that keeps me warm to zero or below is something I had searched long and hard for.

As a bonus I think a quilt is easier to use with a bivy sack. Easier to get in and out of and also easier to control ventilation for warmer temps.

I chose the quilts because I am a flip flopper when I sleep. I can maintain coverage and comfort with a quilt.

[Jolly Green Giant]

Since I got the pleasure of starting this thread, I figured I should also add my two-cents following all the great responses. First, it never ceases to amaze me how much experience and critical thought members carry with them on this site. 99.9% of the time, this is exactly the kind of site which should serve as a model of integrity and competency which I wish others would follow.

On to the greater subject however, as a handful picked up on, my likely problem is my size. I am 6’6” and 265 pounds. I have 37” arms and a 52” chest, and yes, I’ve played my fair share of sports at a high level. My size has hampered me in many aspects of life and backpacking/camping gear is no different. My first attempt at a quilt was a BPL UL 180 and my second was a WM Highlite which I intended to use as a quilt. With both, and admitting a slight exaggeration, it was like putting a washcloth on my chest. The UL 180 went up to my armpits and even the simple act of breathing opened up gaps on the sides. The Highlite was similar. As I looked harder into what kind of quilt would work for me, I started noticing that increases in size which I needed to cover my large frame meant significant increases in weight. In fact, I simply don’t know of a sizeable quilt which would weigh less then a lightweight sleeping bag which ultimately I could use as both a quilt and bag anyway.

After talking with Tom at Nunatak and comparing the weights, sizes and costs against JRB, I decided to go back to WM and I purchased the 35 degree Caribou MF. At 21 ounces for the 6’6” bag, it offered the weight and size I think I needed. I say “think” because I haven’t received it yet as I’m waiting for the box from MooseJaw to arrive. Hopefully it will work out. I’m definitely willing to give quilting a shot as it clearly has its followers and solid logic. I am the proud owner of both the Cocoon UL 60 hoody and PRO pants, so I’m fairly confident that I can stay warm if I need to layer more than my usual base of a merino top and bottom with fleece baklava. My only concern is if I have to resort to the Cocoon, whether just the hoody or hoody and pants…is the weight. With a 21 ounce sleeping bag, and adding roughly 12 oz for the hoody and 13+ ounces for the pants, I’m looking at a range of 21oz to 46oz for the whole sleeping system….not counting the bivy (6.5 oz) if I’m tarp camping….that’s a wide range and likely some excess weight. I admit that it would likely be a rare situation if I needed all the Cocoon gear and probably the best advice is to review the conditions and pack smartly. Then again, if I needed the hoody and pants when I slept, I’d likely need it to some extent in the mornings and evenings too. In this case, it would clearly serve two purposes and mitigate the “sleeping system” weight concerns.

Thanks to all for their comments and experiences.

[Dave T]

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[Matthew Swierkowski]

I also have a Caribou, and I love it. For the OP I am 6'5", but fluctuate between 185 and 200 lbs. My bag is a long and weighs 23.95 oz, so that 21 oz weight you quoted is probably for the regular length bag.

As for wearing layers inside of it, that is exactly what I do. I carry a Micropuff and a pair of Cocoon pants. This allows me to sleep comfortably well below the rating of the bag so that I don't have to carry a bag with a lower rating. Mind you I only carry this setup in really cold weather as I also wear it around camp.

[Brad Groves]

This has been a great thread. It's interesting from a philosophical perspective to see just how… passionate people get about their chosen favorite gear. As several people have already mentioned, bottom line is that you've gotta use what works for you. For the sake of discussion, and for those folks who haven't found the system that works best for them yet, I'd like to add a couple more thoughts/responses.

I'm absolutely baffled ;) at posts which have claimed that quilts are more versatile. Again, I mean no disrespect on anyone's favorite sleep system. But here's why the versatility argument doesn't work for me: You can only use the quilt in one position/fashion. With a sleeping bag:

1) Versatility– I use bags as a quilt in the summer. Same set-up as quilt users. I do have the added 1 ounce of zipper to contend with. However, if temperatures drop I have the option to fully zip up and cocoon myself. With the integral hood (and perhaps even draft collar) I can absolutely minimize heat loss or cold entering my sleep system.

With a sleeping bag, I can also shift down in the baffles so that there's essentially no down on top of me, only under, when I'm using it as a bag. The only way I can see this working with a quilt is if you were using it like a bag.

I like the concept of dual-duty balaclava–and I do carry one. However, I think it's a little strange to say that you get near equivalent warmth as a sleeping bag hood. One reason purely how much insulation. But more importantly, air flow reduction. If you're wearing your down jacket, do you wrap your… well, if there's not a layer you're not wearing, do you wrap that around your neck and spread out to the edges of your pad/quilt to reduce air flow on cold nights?

2) Ventilation– Come on, people, let's be realistic. I can ventilate a sleeping bag every bit as well as a quilt. I'm using my bag the same way! Or, if I'm "inside" it, I just unzip and stick body parts out or flap it.

3) Layering– I fail to see how it's possible to layer under a quilt and not under a bag. I wear layers–up to and including down jackets–in my bags on a regular basis. Never had a problem with it.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that it's ultimately folly to say one is right and one is wrong, because in reality there are more similarities than differences in the two sleep systems. I'll fully admit that my quilt experience is limited to using my bags in the same manner. But it still seems to me that from a logical perspective sleeping bags do have more inherent versatility, regardless of user skill, temps, or whatever. Ultimately, I think the weight issue is not a foregone conclusion in favor of quilts. I've seen many, many quilts online that weigh far more than readily available sleeping bags. I think one reason that this forum has more familiarity with lighter-weight quilts stems from the large MYOG contingency and fringe-ish factions of the backpacking community as a whole. Much remains open to debate, and I hope that y'all enjoy the intellectual stimulation and conversation we find here!

Oh. Last thought. I've seen several posts from quilt folks who use them down to cool/cold temperatures. But I'm wondering if, generally speaking, people who use quilts tend to be using them in warmer climes. (I'm from the south shore of Lake Superior; summer nights into the forties are not strange, spring/fall freezing or under.)

[Diplomatic Mike]

Here's why i think my quilt is more versatile.
My sleeping system has between 8 and 15.5 ounces of down.
8 ounces is in the Arc Specialist, 5.5 ounces is in the Skaha Plus, and 2 ounces is in my Montbell UL Down Inner Pants. All the Arc down is above me. None is being compressed under me. I only carry the down clothing if it's cold enough.
If all your 15.5 ounces of down is in a sleeping bag, then what do you wear around camp or at rest stops? Part of my sleeping system is clothing. That's versatility. Also, most good quality down bags are close fitting for thermal efficiancy. There is little room to wear down clothing inside without it being compressed and losing loft. You could unzip the bag, but then it becomes a quilt.

[te – wa]

regarding comment #2, that argument only works for some bags. There are a handful of bags with 1/2 or 2/3 zip that dont ventilate as well as a quilt. The reason I went to a quilt to begin with was trying to use a Highlite (1/2 zip) and ventilate in Grand Canyon at 60 degrees. It isnt possible, and I was struggling between sweat and chills. I quickly sold that bag seeing that is was not versatile as a quilt, and will not use a bag with a small zipper in the future. The Highlite was replaced with the FAR more versatile JrB "hudson river" quilt. (opens flat, forms footbox, large size, underquilt for hammock, by far more versatile than your current bag, I promise :) )

[Dave T]

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[John S.]

Mike Reid, the arc design does have down tucked under the sides that is being compressed in order to stop drafts. All you have to do is look at the back of the bag to see that.

[Diplomatic Mike]

The Arc has down at the top and sides for insulation, but not under me unless i choose.:)

[Lynn Tramper]

Some more intersting ideas are cropping up here. Some things are becoming obvious.

First, size matters ;) A thin-ish person will be be able to layer more comofrtably under a bag/quilt than a girth-ier person using the same system. That' a no-brainer.

Second, Style matters. Around half of our trips are what would be called "social trips". These may be with friends, with a tramping club, or to a public hut. Many of these trips include arriving at camp/hut early, having afternoon tea, appetisers, mains, deserts and drinks before a game or two of cards. In this environment it would be no fun at all if you had all your insulation in just your sleep system and you were too cold to hang around camp.

Third, climate matters. In winter days are short, which means nights are long. A LONG time to just lie in your sleeping bag. And any time of the year here, you can get a gale force storm blowing the essence of penguins straight off the Antarctic. Going to answer nature's call in these situations with nothing more than a merino top and windshirt can become an epic.

Systems matter. Mike uses 8 ounces in the Arc Specialist, 5.5 ounces is in the Skaha Plus, and 2 ounces in his Montbell UL Down Inner Pants. This sounds EXACTLY like my setup most of the time, except my 8 ounces are in a WM POD 30 instead (truly all the on on top except for a smidgen in the hood). I also use a Skaha hoody plus in winter (UL down inner jacket in 'summer') and down UL pants. This is the ultimate in versatile sleeping. I just add layers as needed, I can unzip the bag completely as I warm up, and in huts I sometimes just sleep on top of my bag while wearing my down layers. No problems with confined sleeping when I do that! Of course, a wider peson couldn't layer as effectively in a POD, so in that case a full bag or quilt WOULD be better, as would a custom made top bag.

Personal disposition matters. I don't think I could ever be tired enough to sleep in a hammock unless it was pitched on the ground. They give me motion sickness. End of story.

Budget matters. For some, a system like the no-snivellers may be best because they need only purchase one item to use as both sleeping and around camp wear. Or the LuxuryLite V-bag may be best due to lack of funds to splurge on down. Or a MYOG Ray-Way quilt might be a good option for those on a tight budget. Synthetics may be preferable both due to cost as well as cold humid climates. And so it goes on and on. Isn't it great that we have so much choice that we need to have boards like this to help us sort through all those choices?!

[te – wa]

you said "I can ventilate a sleeping bag every bit as well as a quilt"
there was no mention of zipper length. Only info I had to go on was your "a sleeping bag" comment. Still, the caribou is a nice bag but cannot be used as an underquilt, so as far as Im concerned, the Hudson River wins, for me. I have overstuffed it with 2 oz of 900fp down and it has a loft of 3.75 inches (ONE layer, not doubled up as a mummy bag is measured, like the summerlite with its 1" baffles). There is no mummy bag on this planet that can offer that much loft for 21oz. That is my biggest joy, and concern.
*oooh, and I almost forgot, the Hudon River with a head hole (called the No-sniveller) can also be worn as a poncho. Thats versatility!

[Roger Caffin]

Good summary Allison.
I like the 'essence of penguins' too!

[Dave T]

.

[Diplomatic Mike]

Well said allison.
I can see that hiking 'style', and daylight hours, makes a big difference to what system suits best. My 'style' is very similar to yours. I too often hike socially with friends. In winter we can have loooong dark nights, and i don't want to spend 18 hours stuck in my only insulation. I want to be able to sit up and talk as a group.
It's easy to forget that we're all from various parts of the planet with different needs and wants.:)

[Brad Groves]

Okay, okay… I couldn't resist a couple more comments. My Western Summerlite has 9 ounces of fill, 4" of loft, and weighs 19 ounces. I've shifted the majority of the down to the top layer, creating a POD-ish top bag with a solid 7-8 ounces on top, and creating between 3-4 inches of loft on top. My Western Flight jacket has about 5 ounces of down and weighs 10.5 ounces. I can move freely in the bag, no compression of down. I wear fleece (Ugh, am I really gonna admit this?) tights for lower insulation. If it's colder, I'm in the bag. So even with a bag system, my down is distributed about like Monsieur Reid's… :P Oh, and yeah, I don't get 1/2 zip bags, either. You don't get the best of quilts or bags, restricted ventilation, blah… ! Don'tcha just love it?!

[Scott Bentz]

I have been using a quilt on my last outings. Our scout troop will be off to Philmont New Mexico and I wanted to see how I like it. BPL UL60 quilt (I think that's what it's called).

1. At the beach on an overnighter: excellent since temps were mid 50's. Just laid it on top. Perfect.

2. Local mountains: Low temp: 38. A bit drafty. I tend to roll and the back of the quilt would open up and let in air between upper and bottom layer of clothing. Need better bottom insulation. I am using a torso lite pad and had to put my pack under my legs for added insulation. My feet got a bit cold due to contact with the ground. Could take my Prolite 3 Regular but am trying to keep weight down.

3. Local mountains again: Low temp 45. Not bad. Same set up. Very little insulation but still a bit drafty. I have a trip starting tomorrow for 2 nights and will come up with a verdict then.

If I had a choice I would just take my WM Highlite. However, my kids are using my bag and I am trying to avoid buying another bag. The verdict is still out for me.

[Lynn Tramper]

Here is a summary of what I consider the pros and cons of quilts vs full bags vs top bags vs half zips etc…

Bags:

A fully zipped bag will be the most versatile. A semi-rectangular bag can be fully unzipped and used flat like a quilt, or just zip up the foot and use it like a boxed-foot quilt (eg Nunatak Arc), or zip it all the way to stop drafts and make use of the hood. These also weigh the most of all the options available. Comfort level is generally high since you can use it just about any way your heart desires.

A mummy bag with full zip is the next most vesatile. It can be unzipped and used like an Arc quilt, or partiall/fully zipped and also has a hood. Very slightly lighter than the semi-rectangular, but generalll a bit warmer for the same amount of down due to the smaller foot box and less space to heat. Either of these types of bags can have attachement straps added if you want that kind of a sleep system option. Comfort is also very high as it can be used as a quilt for resltess or claustrophobic sleepers.

Add a differential cut to you mummy to increase the down efficiency even more.

Plain quilts and closed box foot quilts are next in terms of versatility. If the plain quilt has 'wings' or other attachment systems, or a way to cinch down the foot into a 'box', then warmth can be pretty good. These weigh less than the bag options, but you will need separate insulation for your head. Having the head insulation worn separately is probably more comfortable for a side or stomach sleep (or tosser), but makes no difference to a back sleeper. A bivy bag may also be needed in very windy/cold conditions.

Same goes for the closed box foot bags, but again there is a slight weight saving over a flat quilt. Otherwise the pros and cons are the same.

Top bags are the least flexible sleep system, but also the lightest. If you are a dedicated back sleeper, the fully zippered top bags are an excellent choice, and if you are a hard-core ULer, then a half zip or no zip may appeal to you as you may find the weight savings worth the reduced flexibility. Top bags would be very difficult for a hammocker to use.

What I see it boiling down to is that an increase in flexibility will either weigh more, or be less warm for the same weight as a less flexible system. So our choices will depend on how much flexibility we are willing to sacrifice to keep our pack weight down without freezing.

To me, it's not a big deal. I don't mind carrying an extra ounce or two to have a zipper and hood, but I don't need down underneath me and I don't need room to spare. Then again I don't fidget and I sleep on my back, so a top bag is perfect. A fully semi-rectangular bag is also 'perfect' for sleeping in, but since I don't need that much flexibility, I choose not to carry the extra weight. It wouldn't cripple me if that was all I had available, as the total weight difference is really negligible in the overall scheme of things.

So to answer the original question, I wouldn't say that "Quilts AREN’T as Comfortable as a Sleeping Bag", rather I would say that quilts are just a little less flexible than a fully zippered sleeping bag, but also a little lighter provided you don't need to carry an extra bivy bag or down hood to make it work.

What are others opinions? This is obviously not addressing how much fill/layering etc…as that is really a different issue that depends on the 'style' question.

[Nia Schmald]

Excellent summary Allison. I'm a little confused on one small point though and maybe a don't fully understand what a top bag is. But, how can a top bag be the lighter than a quilt? In general terms isn't a top bag basically a quilt with some extra material to strap it to a sleeping pad? If so the extra material would make it slightly heavier, even if only by an insignificant amount. Have I not grasped the top bag concept? Or maybe you are assuming other items in the quilt system such as a bivy?

[Lynn Tramper]

I use the term "top bag" to refer to something like a WM POD. The total internal circumference of a WM POD is 62 inches at the shoulder, but only ~40 inches of that has down in it, compared to, say a 59 inch "quilt" that has a full 59 inches of down in it. Becuase of the difference in width of down fill, there is also less baffling material, less stitching, and less fabric (the extra fabric to attach it to a pad only needs to be minimal-on our PODs we've removed most of this extra material and just use velcro strips to attach it to our pads).

Also note that when I said "lighter than a quilt", I explained that a top bag is lighter than a quilt for the same warmth, or warmer than a quilt for the same weight depending on how you like to look at it.

[te – wa]

Alison, I like the way you break down the items in sensible manner. But like before in my previous post (that nobody seems to want to touch) is that some quilts are FAR more versatile than we give them credit for. Hammocking is overlooked as something "silly" or not given true credit for being a viable shelter in real world situations. But they are serious shelters, so an underquilt that will also double/triple/quadruple itself is far more versatile than a full zip box bag. What can that do? Its either zipped up, or it isnt. When you can use your quilt as a blanket, a box end (foot closure) top bag, a top quilt for a hammock (btw… most or all of the zippered bags are WAY too wide for use in a hammock – overkill to say the least) and/or an underquilt plus wear around camp as a serape… well that spells versatility, at least to me. So fwiw, with all due respect let me introduce this idea (again) mike

p.s. there is nothing wrong with using/enjoying both styles of insulation either! I know of some that will sleep in a mummy bag covered with a top quilt. Ive done it below 15°

[Lynn Tramper]

As I've never hammocked before, I'm not sure I understand the details you are talking about. How does an underquilt double/triple/quadruple itself? I also don't understand why you couldn't just use the extra width of a 'bag' to help insulated underneath, as part of your 'underquilt"? And if it's really cold, just zip it up and you've got an underquilt firmly attached to your top quilt. What am I missing?

Now the serape thing is kinda cool, but again there is no reason (this is in theory) that you couldn't also make a serape out of a semi-rectangular bag. Stick a hole for your head into one of these bags and it can be used in any situation I can imagine…it would just weigh more than a quilt. Maybe I need to spend a (nauseous) night in a hammock to understand the problems associated with them?

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