Recommend Down Jacket/ Pack

Nick:

The MontBell down jackets come in multiple weights. The lightest weighs just 7 oz. — but the warmth cannot be compared to WM's Flight jacket.

I own the MontBell UL inner down jacket, the regular, thicker inner down jacket, as well as the synthetic Thermawrap jacket. Warmth is obviously subjective, but generally, the two lighter pieces are good to 40F and the heavier one is good to 30F.

I see you hail from southern Cal. If you are interested in seeing some of my UL pieces — the three jackets above, MontBell bags, 6oz. silnylon backpack, a one pound solo tarptent, a 3-lbs two person tent, etc. — feel free to PM me.

Nick,

Welcome to the world of light weight backpacking!

I did the same thing you are doing now about a year and a half ago.

My hiking buddy has the Granite Gear Vapor Trail and has been using over long distances with no problem at all.

If you check out the photography section, you can see the pack in action on the High Sierra Trail to Mt. Whitney and on another thread on Yosemite: Glacier Pt to Red Peak Pass to Merced Lake.

My friend, Jeremy, has carried the Vapor Trail with 29 lbs over 70 miles without any problems.

I just switched from a Gregory Z55 pack to a GoLite Jam2 as my first frameless backpack.

From what I can tell, the Granite Gear has more of a frame and support than the Jam2.

I don't own a down jacket, but I do have the Montbell Thermawarp jacket, which is synthetic. I wanted something that was going to keep me warm in case it got wet.

I have used the Montbell Thermawrap jacket to replace a bulky REI pullover fleece and feel that it is just as warm.

Applying principles of laying, I have used the Thermawrap jacket snow camping and snow shoeing…lowest temperature was 5 degrees F.

Note: I was wearing 5 layers of clothing to pull this off on my torso: Light thermal base layer, synth long sleeve hiking shirt, wind shirt, Thermawrap, and rain jacket. Lower body was light thermal long johns, REI convertable pants, Montbell Thermawrap pants, and rain pants.

Hope that this helps you.

P.S. The Henry Shire Contrail is a great tarptent that I have used all for all of my trips.

-Tony

Granite gear vapor trail is a lot of pack. I use the virga (structureless cousin) and it is a great pack. I would think you would do well with the vapor trail.

For a jacket I can not say enough about the montbell UL down inner. She is one amazing jacket. It is under 7 oz on my scale (medium) and it performs like a champ. It is the only piece of light weight gear that I have purchased that has not been replaced.

One warning don't drink 151 with it around a crackling campfire. The smallest sparks will burn through it in a flash…you need reflexes to brush off the sparks.

If you going to be in temps that are 15 to 60 degrees this with a shell+fleece cap+fleece gloves should be all you need. If you think you will need to hike in it(my guess hiking under 30 degree temps) then I would get the thermal wrap to handle the moisture.

Jamie

So far the only items I'm sure about are a WM Ultralite and Shires Tarptent.

Are you sure you are sure about those two items?

I've been going through the lightening process for a couple of years. I think I would have saved money and time if I had set a goal of where I wanted to go at the beginning. For example, do you want a 10 lb base wt or 5 lb or 1 lb? I recommend that you read through the Gear Lists, too.

I would second what George said. Decide how "hardcore" you want to go, and then plan accordingly. Of course, this is like shooting in the dark because you don't really know what you are "getting yourself into". I read the Bible and decided that I wanted to "break the 5 lb barrier". I never broke it, but I did sleep on 1/8" thick pads that made me feel like I broke my back. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wanted to go 5 pounds and realized once I was using that caliber of gear that I really wanted 8-10lbs for comfort's sake. I am rambling now.

About you original question, I will cast my vote for the GoLite Jam2 (see my Reader Review for mods to get it to 15.1 oz) and the Montbell UL Down Inner. If you need more warmth, look at the Montbell Alpine Light. I have both and love them. The WM jackets rock – I just couldn't fork over the $.

I tested the MontBell UL Down Parka last winter and it's great – down to freezing. It's designed to replace fleece, not serve as insulation when it's really cold. If you are cold prone (as I am) you'll need more heft than this for colder weather. The clear lightweight winner for colder temperatures is the Nunatak Skaha Plus sweater. My XL/XXL hybrid with a pocket and extra down weighs 14 oz and it's super warm. Also expensive, though.

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your initial insights and opinions.

George & Ryan

Your advice was especially eye-opening as it forced me to reconsider my packing philosophy. I agree that it would especially pertinent to any gear choice to set your overall parameters because there are always lighter or more comfortable options.

Ryan is right in the respect that it's hard to venture into the extreme (which is what this forum is all about right?) when you're still accustomed to the relative norm. I don't really have a point of reference except to say that I don't know what a 5 lb base weight would feel like after a day's hike considering my current REI pack is essentially 5 lbs. So far my philosophy is that there are certain conveniences and comforts that I would be willing to concede and others I have to cling on to. For example, someone recently offered me an AntiGravityGear tarptent that was 20 oz. but I didn't feel comfortable with it since the mesh was "drop down" instead of sewn in. (Not a fan of snakes and rodents) Also, I sleep quite cold so I'm willing to carry the extra weight for a full length pad instead of a 3/4 length. (The change from inflatable to closed cell foam was an obvious and easy transition to make on the other hand). Hopefully that helps you place me in what part of the spectrum I belong in.

This is where I implore you gentlemen to assist me in interpreting how I feel toward certain gear into wise (time tested) decisions…

After reading all the responses on the packs: I went to REI and spent over an hour trying on the following packs:

GG Vapor, Nimbus Meridian, REI UL 45, Osprey Atmos 50
and Gregory Z55 * (wasn't on my list, but employee recommended)

My test weight via sandbags (and positioning pillows) was 25 lbs which may be blasphemy to some but that is probably going to be close to my MAXIMUM Goal weight on any given trip (includ. water and food).

The Vapor was the pack I liked the most based on reviews and research, however with that amount of weight, it felt overloaded and uncomfortable. Despite lots of adjustments and time, I felt perhaps 25 lbs might've been too close to the 30lbs limit for this particular pack. (or maybe I was just too bony) I took off 10lbs and the pack instantly became wonderfully comfortable. However, I feel that realistically my pack weight will only be close to 15lbs without any food or water.

Both GG packs felt like they placed the weight too much on my lower back (I think it has to do with the lack of a frame?). However, when I tried on the 2 lb 15 oz (small) Atmos 50, the load felt perfectly manageable and comfortable. In your expert opinions, is the Atmos an acceptable pack at almost 3 lbs? Obviously this is a subjective decision… but help me out here.

Nick:

As with most things in life, you get diminished returns as you approach the extreme. Most of us here will agree that it is extremely enticing and easy to fall into the trap of "the lighter the better".

But step back a bit and think what is YOUR purpose for lightening up. Is it to enjoy your hikes more? Or are you in a race against others (or yourself) to see who can hike the lightest and come back alive to brag about it?

If enjoying the hike is your goal, we all have a personal "sweet spot" where the load is light enough that we can hike on without even thinking about it. Spending ever more time and expense going below that will give you ever-diminishing physiological returns.

My own sweet spot is around 20 lbs total pack weight. I can hike all day and not even think about the weight. Sure, lighter still is "better" — but the point is it won't really be all that much better for me. On the other hand, not having a proper sleeping bag or pad or shelter will certainly be a damper.

I think you should first determine for yourself where your sweet spot lies — before jumping in with both feet in some quest for the lightest — only to find out later that the benefits fail to outweigh the negatives (in terms of sacrificing safety or convenience or just plain fun).

Plenty of people get caught up into drilling holes in the handles of their spoons or leaving the toothbrush entirely at home. Now, each to his or her own, and why deny anyone the fun and benefits of going super duper ultra light? But recognize that the benefits here are purely psychic (if not psycho). OTOH, if that's what tickles you, then by all means — have a go at it and enjoy. But just make sure you know what you want before you start your gear weight shedding quest.

It is also important to think about how long you will backpack. For example, one nighter versus seven nights will make food weight a big difference in percentage of your total pack weight. IMHO, variable gear weight becomes more relevant the more days you hike due to fixed wts like food. You can also argue that you can hike farther per day with less weight. My long-term strategy is oriented towards becoming a thru hiker. I want to minimize gear wt to lessen my total wt due to food to enable me to hike farther.

5 lb Gear
Nights %Wt is Gear
1 0.75
2 0.61
7 0.31

15 lb Gear
Nights %Wt is Gear
1 0.90
2 0.82
7 0.57

Assuming 2 oz fuel and 1.5 lb food per day

Great advice from Ben, as usual. Enjoying your hiking is a matter of getting the balance right. Carrying too much weight is just *one* factor. You also need to balance it with other factors… such as comfort and fit of your pack. It's not worth saving half a pound (or even a pound) on a lighter pack if it feels uncomfortable with the weights you are expecting to carry.

Having said that, I'm surprised to hear that Nimbus Meridian wasn't comfy at that weight. It has got an internal frame (topoflex) and the max weight is rated at 40lbs. If you are finding there is too much weight on your hips perhaps it wasn't fitted exactly right? You can adjust the torso length in the Meridian to make sure your shoulder straps are taking a little bit of weight.

In the end, you won't know for sure if the Atmos is going to suit you until you take it out on the trail for a day or two. Buy it from REI and return it if you find it uncomfortable. If it does work for you, then don't worry if other people are using lighter packs.

ps. I now have the nimbus meridian, which is heavier than the atmos

Ben & Ash., Agree with your points of view. To each his/her own. I would encourage those new to the process to understand how your packs construction becomes less relevant as the load you carry becomes less.

Also, if you are in great physical condition and have no leg or other body issues, the whole weight thing becomes irrelevant. For example, my two sons don't really care if they carry an extra 10 or 15 pounds as long as they have a pack designed to carry heavier loads. They kid me but understand that, for me, it's the light-way or the highway – literally.

Another argument I've often seen is that lighter than (fill in the blank) is unsafe and uncomfortable. I believe over the last 4 years there has been significant improvement in knowledge and products for greatly reducing the load you can carry with adequate safety and reasonable comfort. A 5 lb sub is no big deal anymore. A 1 lb is now the fringe I would say. Search the forums if you doubt my words.

It is there, if you want it. If you don't want it now, it will still be there if you change your mind : )

Nick, you may already know this, if so just disregard. But remember if you are trying on a frameless pack you need to create a frame with gear you are already bringing, ie, probably your closed cell foam pad. Insterted as a cylinder into the pack, it will create a rigid frame that will prevent the pack from buckling and will distribute weight better.

I have had no comfort issues at all going with frameless packs. In fact, my discomfort came from massively thick and unforgiving hip pads (REI Mars) that would leave my skinny little hip bones screaming after a day of hiking.

P.S. I'll second what Ben said. It took me a while to realize that.

nick. have you concidered a pack from gossemar gear. i purchased one in oct.of 07, so didn't get a chance to try it until this season. i love it. it does have a light wt. frame, but is very light wt. for the size.. look into them

Nick,

If you like a frame in your pack (I also like one too), I would look into these options:

1. either a SixMoonDesigns.com or GossamerGear.com pack that has the optional internal aluminum stays (and order those stays) (or ULA too). Email them to see if you can do trial hike and if you don't like it, return it. (They'll probablyl want you to do the trial hike around the streets to avoid getting the packs dirty).

2. consider the GraniteGear.com Nimbus Ozone (yes, it weighs 3 pounds, but it has a solid frame) — 2.5 pounds lighter than what you have now.

3. Another ultralight solid frame pack is the LuxuryLite.com external frame pack, but getting used to their belt is something I'm told only works with 90 percent of their customers.

As was recommended to you by the employee, try this pack out if you're not ready for the ultralight frameless ruck plunge. I carried one for a short distance (hauling well over 30 lbs.) and the pack felt great even though it was the wrong torso size for me. If I were routinely carrying 35+lbs I would probably take a serious look at the Z55.

Not much to add to the excellent comments except to say that if you like the Atmos 50, and are not yet ready to go frameless, you might then look at the Atmos 35. My son owns this extremely comfy pack and I sometimes use it. This could save a few $$$ and ounces.

At 35L you would want to test-load it with all your gear to make sure you have the volume you need. I can get my gear + 5 days food in. While I don't approach 25 lbs I believe it could handle 30 lbs well. Really, volume would be more the issue.

Of course a closed cell pad will have to strap to the outside. Also, consider a garbage bag for your sleeping bag stuff sack, then let the the bag spread out to fill the niches in the bottom of the Atmos. You will end up with much more space as compared to a standard stuff sack.

Not exactly "UL" but a good "L" pack. Also, as often stated, purchase a pack after all your other major items are in place. The packed items will determine what your pack weight-carrying and volume specs should be.

Please post with your eventual decision and good luck.

Just so add some info on my experience with already mentioned products…

Both Granite Gear packs do have frames. The suspension on the Nimbus line is a little heavier duty and adjustable. I tried on the Vapor Trail and it wouldn't fit me right so I bought a Nimbus Meridian which I've used for the last year or two. It can carry 30 lbs no problem while putting whatever percentage of weight I feel like on my hips. Downside is it's 3.5 lbs or more if you add hip belt pockets. I've also tried the Gossamer Gear Mariposa and it carried exceptionally with the 18 pounds I had it but I did experience some fabric failure. I'm currently looking at going to a Six Moon Designs pack (adjustable suspension), just trying to decide between the Comet and the Starlite.

I also have a Montbell Thermawrap (synthetic) and I've been plenty warm in it to 15 or so wearing only it and a long-sleeve merino wool shirt on the core region. Obviously that isn't the case for everyone but I wanted to provide my experiences.

I have used both the z55 and the z35. I returned the 55, YMMV but after lightening my gear I found that 55L is a huge load(for ul tech.). I might still pick up the 55 for winter use but I feel that would be the only time I could fill it up.

The 35 has the same frame. I could not find one in a store but testing the 55 which is a usual stocked item will let you know if you like the suspension. It has a ton of room and you would be surprised how much you can stuff in the shovit pocket. I just used it on an overnighter to climb mount Shasta and even though it was fully filled and tipped the scales at 35 pounds, I couldnt complain one bit. The pack has many load shifting adjustments and it truly becomes a part of me when im wearing it. It was a dream to lug 35# up hill. 25# on more moderate terrain would be nothing for this pack. I cant praise it enough. I dont think I will notice anything under 20# in this pack.

Nick:

Folks have suggested some excellent backpack choices.

If you've already assembled most all of your other gear — or have finalized your choices — then you're in a good position to select an appropriate pack.

However, if you are still exploring different choices of bags, tents, cooksets, etc. — then I highly, highly recommend that you leave your pack decision to last. Look around, by all means, but don't buy your pack until you've got all the other pieces (or at least the major items) tied down.

I haven't seen the Mountainsmith Ghost mentioned yet, so I'll nominate it for consideration. They aren't made any more, but there are lots of them floating around in cyberspace. At 3000 c.i., ~2#6 0z weight, and a suspension that carries 30 plus pounds like a dream(for me, anyway) it's definitely worth a look. Why, I'll bet that Ben could even be persuaded to part with his if you talked to him real nice(and offered him lots and lots of money). ;})

And Nick, once you purchase everything, you will catch the disease that most of us have. In search of the perfect gear disease. Keep in mind, this a time consuming and costly disease that afflicts most of us on this site.

Nick, ULA are awesome, as well as Granite Gear Vapor Trail. I have used both packs over the years and they are awesome! I too own a Montbell down jacket and love it. And yes, if having a fire…stay away! The thing is, once you have hit your comfort level, you will start to try new things, gain more knowledge and look at lighter options (ie tarps, poncho tarps like the Six Moon Designs Gatewood Cape with bug netting, etc.) Have fun with this new addiction/affliction

I have the atmos 50 and I really like it except for three things. The first being that even though the mesh is very comfortable it takes a lot of space out of the interior of the pack and forces you to be very creative with your packing. The second is that I wish the sleeping pad straps were on the bottom rather than the diagonal bottom corner, it would just keep it more streamlined to the pack that way. The last is that the side pockets are useless for anything you may need while walking as the compression straps strap directly over top of them so you have to pack them with things you won't need until you unpack.

Other than that it's a very comfortable pack and you can put your hydration bladder in the mesh area which helps keep your back cool.

Nick, Ken's post is so true. I'm guessing since you are trying to make such thoughtful choices now you will catch the disease. I rather like to call it the "journey". I think it involves several things….gear knowledge for one, but more importantly knowledge of yourself and what a need truly is. It is rather interesting to discover how little one needs to explore the woods and have a great & safe time doing it. Since I mostly solo hike it did mean coming to grips with things I was somewhat afraid of but were largely irrational.

My journey started like yours…I'm going light weight!!!…step 1 replace my gear with new stuff. This really doesn't require much learning except gear knowledge. I replaced my pack with gregory g-pack, sleeping bag with marmot hydrogen, tent was MSR hubba, and I did go alcohol stove. My new gear weighed in at 14 lbs base weight. I did a trip…this is cool….14lbs Oct-2007 Shenandoah NP.

Time to throw away some junk and buy a few new pieces…titanium cookwear….toss out the heavy multi-tool…never really needed the needle nose pliers after all….Smokey Mountains NP 12 lbs Nov-2007.

Time to go to the next level…can I do the tarp thing? I knew I wouldn't know until I faced it (sleeping alone, in the woods without walls). Buy tarp – integral designs, bivy – montbell dry-tech. Hmmm…don't need heavy pack anymore…buy Granite Gear Virga…can a frameless pack work?….hmmm will need to learn to pack it. Let's go do this thing. SNP II – 8.5 lbs – January 2008 (22 degree low).

Been through rain, sleet, sub freezing temps…I'm covering twice the distance I did as when I was 16 (I'm 40 now) and no problems. Spring is coming time to lighten the load again… but running low on funds….can I poncho tarp it? can I use a lighter bag and pack? Can I cook using just a cup?…Pisgah NF – 5 lbs – May 2008

Well I can…and I can do it and have a lot of fun. I completed my first 20 mile plus day without even knowing it. I know its not big stuff compared to many folks, but it is my journey. I wish you luck on your journey.

Jamie

PS. I just reread this and realize I'm getting a way too heavy when a guy just asked what down jacket he should buy…my apologies…did I mention that the Mont-Bell UL is amazing:)

Nice post James. Interesting to see how your style evolved, and I think it echoes the progression of a lot of us.

Like Richard, I tested the Montbell U.L. Down Inner Parka last year, and I absolutely love it. It is unbelievably warm for the weight. As he said, it is more for "cool" than really cold weather, but as part of a layering system I think I used it down to about 20 F. I also liked that it wasn't too heavy to use in more moderate temperatures.

Friends of mine each have an Osprey pack. They love them for the comfort. I wouldn't consider one because of the way they pack. The way the back is shaped really limits the usable space, and when the interior is packed the side pockets have very little space. If you are interested in one, I would definitely recommend getting your other gear together and taking it to the store and packing it into one instead of just relying on a sandbag test.