Vapor barrier clothing for sleeping systems

[Christopher May]

I’ve gotten a much lighterweight down sleeping bag and now wear my warm clothing when I sleep. I was considering getting a vapor barrier liner to put inside my bag for colder camping but then it seems the clothes I am wearing would get wet from perspiration. I read somewhere it is better to wear vapor barrier clothing to bed to keep the other clothing and the down bag dry while increasing warmth. So I am considering wearing my silk long underwear tops and bottoms covered by wind pants and long sleaved wind shirt(Montbell U.L.), then wearing my down jacket and other clothing (depending on how cold it is), then my Sierra Designs Wicked Light 45degree bag covered by a breathable bivy sack(Bozeman Mountain Works Vapr Bivy or Montbell Ultrlight Goretex Bivy or Mountain Laurel Designs Superlight Bivy). Any comments on this vapor barrier clothing idea as well as choice of bivy sac?

[Craig S Stewart]

Hi Chris,
I have been using both VBL clothing and VBL bag liners for a number of years. I am sold on the concept. In general, I have found the clothing to be more useful both in the down sleeping bag and wearing with my down vests and parkas around camp. My down gear keeps it’s loft and I stay warmer. The sleeping bag VBLs are not as versatile and I have noticed more condensation in them probably from the nylon chilling to the dewpoint. Whereas, the VBL clothing is worn with a thin base layer of underwear underneath and is closer to the body so it stays warmer and very little perspiration condenses. Over the VBL clothing I place any other clothing I might need to stay warm and dry. Another benefit I have noticed over the years is that I getless dehydrated when using the VBL which allows the body to work more efficiently thereby staying warmer.
In your case, wearing VBL clothing over your silk underwear and then everything else over the VBL should work ok. I have never worn silk so can not say for sure if any noticeable moisture would accumulate (I wear polypro). What moisture I have encountered over the years has been minimal and not a problem. Some experimenting might be in order with VBLs and clothing to find the combination that works best for you.
I have not used any of the bivies you mentioned although I have used a OR Goretex Advanced Bivy with good results under a ID Silshelter. Hope this helps.

Craig

[William Siemens]

I have come to believe wholeheartedly in vb for sleeping in subfreezing temps…otherwise you are just filling your insulation with frost. I love vb socks, or even just produce bags under heavy socks…dry socks prevent cold feet better than anything. Do not like the clothing for daytime use, though…in theory it is good, but I sweat under my vb shirt and it runs down into my pants, etc… decidedly “NG.” Bill

[Christopher May]

Thanks Craig and Bill for your insights. Nice to hear from people who have used this concept. I’ll have to try out the silk and see how it works. It might not be absorbent enough. I prefer natural over synthetic so maybe I’ll try to find silk weight merino wool although I’ve yet to see anything that thin. If not I can go with polypro.
Craig- I am wondering what you use for VBL shirt and pants? Do you use a windshirt and windpants or are they too breathable? (The lightest windshirt and windpants I found searching online are the Montbell U.L Wind Pant and Wind Jacket at 2.6oz jacket and 2.4oz pants.) I don’t really know how breathable these are.
Do you bring a rain shell and rain pants in addition to the VBL shirt/pants? I currently use a Marmot Essence Anorak Rain shell jacket and Marmot PreCip pants which are waterproof/breathable so I think too breathable to use as a VBL. From my unerstanding at night when it is cold you would use the VBL close the the body, then warm clothing and then the rain gear on top for wind protection?
Thanks,
Chris

[paul johnson]

yes, VB clothing is worn next to the body. anything under it will be soaked with sweat in the morning.

i don’t think most wind gear would work well as a VB. generally, even though windproof, wind gear is too breathable.

don’t own any VB clothing, so can’t make any recommendations. one company makes it, but i’ve read good things and some very bad things about dealing with that company, so i hesitate to mention their name as a recommendation, but supposedly the gear performs well.

[R K]

Hey Paul, I use VB socks and they are very effective. What I do if I know my feet are going to get wet and cold for an extended period(hiking through snow or prolonged rain) is put on the VB socks, then my regular socks, then another pair of VB socks on top of my regular socks. This essentially waterproofs my regular socks and allows me to wear lightweight shoes/sandals in almost any condition. My feet will get wet from sweating but they are still warm, which is better than the alternative of cold and wet. Be sure to plug your nose when you take off the VB’s. I agree that regular wind gear is too breathable, but it might help a restrict breathablity a little, depending on the windshirt material.

Chris, check out the Montane Jetstream. It weights just 77 grams/2.47 oz. and is made of Pertex Quantum.

-Roy-

[paul johnson]

Roy,

i had totally forgotten about the feet. when i replied i was thinking of torso & legs. i have ID VB socks. use them when i don’t want my feet getting wet – at certain times of the year, it can rain for days on end where i live. VB socks are easy to get on & off (unlike GTX socks, or some similar socks i’ve tried – size up & they are easier to don & doff, but then there is that extra material at the toe to deal with and cram into shoes – hence my preference for the more fragile VB socks).

i use just one pair, but after reading your enlightened post, i’m going to adopt your more advanced layering approach.

thanks for sharing. appreciate it.

[Bill Fornshell]

The Cuben material should make great Vapor Barrier clothing or wear around camp stuff. A pair of pants (size L) should weight about 1oz (pattern made) and a shirt about 1.5oz. The pants might have full side zips and the shirt might also have full side (arm pit to waist) zips. The side zips would add about 1oz to each the pants and shirt and be YKK 26″ 2-way separating zippers.

I have always used a VBL in my Down sleeping bags for near or below freezing temps. The trick is not to over-heat and sweat a lot.

[Richard Nelridge]

Chris,

Vapor Barrier Clothing can be obtained from Stephenson’s Warmlite (www.warmlite.com). Their tops and bottoms have fuzzy material to help to absorb perspiration. My L top weighs about 5.4 oz and my M bottom weighs about 4.4 oz.

Rich

[Craig S Stewart]

I have been using a Moonstone VBL shirt and pants for several years…no longer made. They are made of coated nylon. Currently considering replacing w/ something lighter. A windshirt and windpants are much too breathable. I bring a rain shell and pants but do not wear them in the sleeping bag and I do not wear the VBL when hiking, only sleeping and around camp but not working hard.

[Christopher May]

Thanks everyone for the input.
The Stephenson’s Warmlite website was very infomative but I’m hoping to get something lighter than a 5.4 oz shirt and 4.4 oz bottoms. I plan to just wear them around camp and when sleeping. Anyone know of a vapor barrier shirt and pants that weigh less than 5oz. combined?

[Anonymous]

Get 1 mil plastic and tape some clothing up. It should be lighter than described above.

[Ryan Jordan]

VB clothing is an interesting concept. I’ve played with it for years in various configurations, including the Stephenson stuff and several homemade varieties.

Prepare for heresy ahead.

I wear wool baselayers under my VB clothing.

(ducks, to avoid eggs, tomatoes, etc.)

Wool, yes, Mr. Absorbent, something (seemingly) totally mismatched for under-VB clothing. Hopefully RBH Designs won’t read this. They’ll harangue me for it.

But it works – well. And the science of wool says it should work.

Is it damp in the morning? Sure, like anything else. But it’s less clammy and “wet” feeling than, say, capilene, silk, or lifa (pp). But there is not a lot of moisture in it and it’s certainly not enough to worry about. My wool underlayers get more wet while active than they ever do under VB clothing.

For the record, I use Smartwool microweight base layers, and typically only use VB in temperatures less than about 10 degrees F.

[Anonymous]

Or get Fornshell to make you a pair of cueban fabric vb’s for 2-3 oz.

[Mark Verber]

So are you suggesting that we should send mail to the folks at RBH with a link to this thread?

I can imagine a microweight wool layer working well. Alas, even merino makes me itch. I have tried a number of things. I didn’t like vapor barrier against the skin (except warmlite was ok thanks to the fuzzy inside. I have found that a featherweight power dry base works reasonably well for me. I didn’t like silk under the VB cause it felt clammy. My experience is that a vapor barrier works pretty well, but I am still not happy with the experience.

BTW: Who besides warmlite makes vapor barrier clothing (not neccessary to be lighter) i AM just wondering about other sources. I though ID made them, but I don’t see VB clothing on their website.

[paul johnson]

ID only makes VB socks. unless i’m mistaken, that’s ’bout it.

Brawny’s Dancing Light Gear makes a rain shirt and pants (6.5 to 8 oz, depending upon the size) that can double as VB – it’s waterproof, but not breatheable. oh…why am i typing this…

here’s a link:

Brawny’s Gram-Weenie Rain/VB rain suit

and

here’s what appears to be the same as or very similar to the rain jacket touted for use as VB

here’s her mittens & socks:

Mittens and socks

no ‘fuzzy stuff’ like in the WarmLite, so perhaps Dr. J’s or Mark’s micro-wt base layer will be in order. also, will have to cinch tight the neck & waist drawcords when using it as VB in the sack.

for completeness, here’s the Main Page

while not VB, check out her 1.75oz “fanny/hip” packs. want to keep something handy while on the trail, but the idea of carrying a 6oz fanny pack chaffs at your UL sore-point? this might be the answer. you’ll find a link on her Main Page for her cyber-store.

note: i haven’t done business with her yet, but plan to purchase several items from her over the next 6mos or so (like most people, i’m on a budget). have corresponded with her via email and on this basis, she has earned my trust and i won’t have any qualms sending her a personal check (you can also use PayPal).

[Neil Bender]

Ryan,

I don’t see any heresy in your approach to using VBL clothing. The ONLY way I can wear my double boots (the inner boot is essentially impermeable) for any length of time is with good merino wool socks. My feet sweat constantly, even when cool. I usually use a thin synthetic liner sock with X-static silver based anti-microbial treatment, but it is wool’s capacity to soak up and hold the sweat without feeling too clammy that makes for comfort.

I tried silk underwear as a lightweight liner for VBL clothing on a few outings, but although silk has a pretty good retention of moisture on a weight basis, lightweight silk can’t hold a full nights worth of perspiration, and feels somewhat sticky halfway through a long winter’s night.

I’ve used both a vapor barrier inner sack and VBL clothing (home made), and clothing is more versatile and allows for other clothes to be kept warmed in the bag without picking up body moisture. Of course, using this approach to dry out wet clothes this way negates some of the intent of keeping moisture out of the bag’s insulation.

[Christopher May]

In response to someone’s question as to who makes vapor barrier clothing. Here is what I have found via Google searches:
1. http://www.warmlite.com Stephenson’s website
2. http://www.rbhdesigns.com Only shows mittens on website but after contacting them by e-mail found they have an 11.5 ounce shirt with antimicrobal lining they will be selling soon and pants that are still in the works. There focus is on durablity for use while moving. Probably too heavy for just camp/sleep use.
3.Dancing Light Gear (all the info is in Paul’s previous post to this thread)
4. http://www.moonbowgear.com They will custom make a Sil Nylon vapor barrier suit to your specifications. Said a ballpark weight/cost would be 6oz. and around $100 for both the pants and shirt. Have to be willing to wait as may take a while.

[Christopher May]

A couple of questions regarding vapor barrier clothing for sleeping inspired by Ryan’s post about using merino wool:
-Ryan, you said you wear merino wool underneath. Do you wear sox, long merino wool pants and a long sleeved shirt or will a short sleeved merino wool shirt suffice? (on the smartwool webssite I only see microweight offered in shorts and short sleeves, have to go to the heavier “lightweight” for long pants/long sleeves) Merino wool gloves necessary?
-Ryan, do you just wear a VBL shirt and pants or VBL gloves and booties as well?
-Ryan, you only use this system under 10degrees F. Is it feasible to use it between 10degreesF and 30degreesF or does it not work due to the humidity level or something. I have very low body fat and get cold easily and I’m hoping that by using VBL clothing around camp and while sleeping I can cut down on the amount/weight of warm clothing/sleeping bag I need to bring. Don’t think I would use while backpacking unless it was REALLY cold.
– I’m leaning toward using merino wool and a non-lined VBL as I already use merino as a base layer while hiking but if anyone knows what the Stephenson’s warmlite “fuzz” is made of and how it works I’d be interested to find out.

[Richard Nelridge]

Chris,

I am still not sure what the “fuzzy stuff” that Stephenson’s uses is made of. I would venture to guess that it is a synthetic. The “fuzzy stuff” is very thin and should not really add that much weight to the Vapor Barrier Clothing.

Though Ryan may use it below 10 degrees F, it should work for basically any temperature below freezing. Vapor Barrier Clothing should add about 10 to possibly 15 degrees F of warmth to your sleeping system. You would definetly want to use at least the top and the bottom. For hands and feet, it will help there as well but that will be a matter of preferance.

The “fuzzy stuff” will certainly absorb much or most? of your perspiration. It certainly will be much more comfortable directly against the skin than just silnylon. The “fuzzy stuff” will also make for a more flexible system since you can use it without and possibly with any thermal insulated clothing inside the Vapor Barrier Clothing (this will depend upon your personal metabolism and the weather/temperature conditions).

Ryan can make more comment about using Merino wool inside the Vapor Barrier Clothing. You may be more comfortable, but you may not. You will have to experiment with clothing and your own specific metabolism to fine tune the system. Of course, the Merino Wool could be worn outside the Vapor Barrier Clothing if it does not work for you inside the clothing.

Regardless, if you are using Vapor Barrier Clothing you will need to be careful regarding how much heat is being transferred to and through any wet clothing and where the dew point will be as to what the water form will be- that is will it either be dumped into (and very possibly freeze) or evaporate through your sleeping bag.

Rich

[Verndal Lee]

Christopher – you can find long sleeved, smartwool, microweight crews at backcountrygear.com.

[Craig S Stewart]

Chris,
Thanks for tracking down some possible sources for UL VBL clothing. I have been thinking of trying to lighten up and replace my coated nylon VBL shirt and pants. My feeling is the hands and feet should have VBL coverage due to the huge number of sweat glands in them. I have used bread sacks on feet and hands as well as VBL socks from Climb High and neoprene Gator socks from Campmor. All have worked fine. I am also curious as to why Ryan only uses VBLs below 10 degrees F. I have seen significant loss of down loft up to about 20 degrees F and I always use VBL if it is going to be colder than that and sometimes up to near 32. I am fine using it up to near freezing. Like you, I am cold natured. When that perspiration vapor hits that ice-cold outer shell fabric of the sleeping bag, I think a lot of it condenses right there wetting the down.

Craig

[David Spellman]

I just wear silkweight top and bottoms (sorry, haven’t tried woolies yet, Ryan) and crawl into what I *think* is a Mountain Hardwear vapor barrier liner (about 5 ounces). I rarely wake up with damp garments — whatever dampness there is usually flashes off within the first few moments after I crawl out of the bag. It’s certainly not sweaty in there if I’ve kept myself cool and comfortable during the night.

Since this setup usually only goes out with me when it’s really cold (down around 0 degrees F), I’m usually carrying a 10 degree down bag and sleeping inside some kind of shelter. Pretty rare that I need extra clothing with this setup, and I don’t worry about wearing it — I’ll usually just drape the down jacket over me if I need some extra insulation. If you get too warm at night, it’s a real pain to take all this stuff off and then put it back on. Easier just to slide it aside.

It probably wouldn’t occur to me to bother with a bivy under these conditions; I’d rather have six or eight ounces of extra down in the sleeping bag than the same weight of bivy.

Wind pants and shirt are not, by the way, vapor barriers. They usually both wick and breathe and don’t offer much hindrance to moisture moving off your body to other places.

[David Olsen]

Just before Goretex burst on the scene, VBL’s
were more popular as they greatly enhanced the
usefulness of coated fabric rain gear etc. The most
popular undergarment of the time was the large
opening cotton string shirt. This worked really well
as it kept the VBL far from the skin but didn’t
have a lot of fabric for absorbtion. Even better
were the expensive wool versions. I’ve tried polypro
versions but they really pick up oils and smells.
I don’t know where one could get a cotton or
wool version today that doesn’t come with polypro
in it. Maybe Possum down?

One combination I have used with success is a half
bag of silnylon for the legs and waist when sleeping
combined with a VBL jacket. This way your feet
stay warmer than using VBL pants as heat from your legs can more easily reach them. It also can
double as a pack liner.
The jacket can be worn during the day and with the advantage of enabling you to layer coats over the top of the VBL for both sleeping and hiking.
I have found that a VBL jacket over long johns was comfortable with no noticable moisture buildup when hiking in sub zero weather
and balancing my outer layers
to keep from overheating.

Climbers on Denali wear
VBL vests under down gear when climbing to keep
their insulation layers dry next to their backs.

[Author]

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