Tarptent and coming economic doom

Buy your gear now. You have the economic means and will derive pleasure from it.

Without intending to be mean, I say that trying to predict the global economy and how it impacts the price of gear seems rather trivial.

To back up a few steps, we (global human population) are entering that point when all things needed and wanted will be exponentially more scarce. Too many people competing for finite means, blah, blah, blah. To that end, we will be forced to make increasingly tougher decisions on which food to eat, whether to drive somewhere or not, and whether I truly NEED a fourth ultralight tent because it is new and different.

Unfortunately, the very thing that drives many of the folks on this board…the evaluation, accumulation, and use of STUFF is contributing to the demise of our ecosystem. And while it pains me personally to acknowledge it…if stuff costs more…I guess we will all be more frugal, and in turn environmentally conscious with our choices. (Please no one assume that I am targeting gear lovers as evil…but even with personal reflection, I have purchased and own stuff without completing the life-cycle on a piece of gear intended for the same purpose. And I have re-sold some of it yes, but in terms of resources…I have been very wasteful because it was very easy to do so.)

Thanks though for pointing out companies that are taking time to recognize that lightness is not the only issue we should consider as wilderness enthusiasts.

Sorry for the rant: Back to the price of cuben fiber…

Given that UL gear is very much a niche market, I think that it will be much more resistant to the down turn in the economy.

Perhaps the area to look at is the impact of mainstream retailers like REI in terms of their annual sales.

Backpacking is recreational and in that respect is a luxury.

Those people who are addicted to the outdoors will continue to buy the gear, but maybe fewer pieces or maybe even going with a less expensive alternatives.

The most likely decrease in gear sales might be in attracting novices to backpacking who will balk at the large upfront expensive of shelling out money for tent, sleeping bag, backpack, etc.

An opportunity exist for the manufacture who can bring to market products that are fully featured or slightly scaled back in features and still perform as well as what is currently on the market.

The new Tarptent could be a good example of taking advantage of the recent economic downturn.

On the UL side of things, lets face it, gear is like crack.

We lust after the new stuff, we count the ounces that we might save with new gear, we drool over the internet searching for new stuff to hold us over until we can get a chance to get out onto the trail.

Passion overcomes the economics.

If you look at the cost per ounce of some of the UL or SUL gear vs. traditional gear, it is insanely expensive and I am pretty sure that everyone who bought that gear thought it was worth every penny.

I have been able to justify and delude myself sucessfully for the past 2 years that the thousands that I have spent on my family and myself on gear was completely worth it.

I tell myself that buying all that gear is cheaper than taking a trip to Hawaii with the family and that I will get to use all that year for decades to come.

How is it that I have 3 backpacks and 2 day packs and 3 sleeping bags?

Reality is that I would have been financially better off if I had bought a mule and thrown a $40.00 Coleman tent on the mule!

All good points. One of the appealing things for me about doing this Tyvek shelter is that Tyvek is made from 100% high-density polyethylene (HDPE) and is 100% recyclable. I'd love to find more ways to lower our footprint and I'm all ears if there are other fabrics out there with smaller footprints that do the job.

-H

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Walking is FREE! All one needs is a good pair of shoes and even the need for them has been questioned by the members of this community.

I predict this sort of recreational activity will expand, rather than contract in the coming years. Political correctness alone will surely drive this market. Going green, it simply makes good sense both singularly as well as collectively and what a great opportunity to make a few dollars in process, etc, etc, and so on. Opportunity for more eco friendly gear will quickly continue to make its way into this market. The increasing deterioration of our physical condition will ultimately drive us to seek a more interactive means by which we can make long overdue improvements to our physical well being. A realization that what we once took for granted is disappearing right before our very eyes will cause some to attempt to reconnect with that which we believe may be lost to us forever. Etc, etc, etc,.

And all this while half the world continues to starve and exploitation of the Earth's finite precious resources continues unchecked at an ever increasing rate.

We will focus on stopping global warming which we foolishly perceive to be our problem, not realizing that it is merely the weakest link in a continuous chain that holds all that sustains us together. If we were in fact somehow able to repair this link, we will only be subjecting ourselves to a far more powerful challenge next.

Our Mother is crying out to us to stop our selfish ways! Unless and until we begin the process of returning back to Her that which we have taken, this seemingly insatiable appetite that drives us to engage in an unending procession of self destructive activities that cause us to continually engorge ourselves in irrational desire at the expense of anything that would stand in our way, will cause these challenges that lie before us to only intensify no matter how else we proceed.

HAPPY TRAILS!
Peter

For me, the move to UL gear has also led me to increase my own self-sufficiency. This has expanded into all aspects of my life, and I think this is good for me, good for the earth, and ultimately good for the economy. I walk or bike to work, I've traded in my 2.4L pickup for a 660cc car (for when I really DO need to drive somewhere), I belong to hiking clubs which allow us to carpool to the track, and I take less with me everywhere I go. It started with the gear, but soon the gear became less important than knowing how to get by with less stuff. All the gear I don't use gets passed on rather than gathering dust in the attic. I've even got a smaller, lighter puppy. He is very economical, as dogs go! I also am mortgage free…
;)

So basically, due to things I've learned and am still learning about UL, I am not as dependant/addicted to new gear as I was as a novice. I won't be buying a tyvek tarptent, for instance (especially as it rains a LOT in these parts). I now make or repair a lot of my own gear. So basically, I'm not too worried about the threat of rampant inflation. As long as I've got my quarter acre plot for a veggie patch (and global warming doesn't ruin my growing opportunities), I know we will survive, though we may not be able to afford as many trips to remote wildernesses in future. Time will tell.

There is still a place for technology though. Using less is important, but finding better ways to do things is also important IMHO. Solar, wind, hydrogen, recycling, re-afforestation and newer technologies are all part of the game too. I think the technology and train of thought that is allowing folks to make lighter and stronger tents, pakcs, shoes and sleeping bags for instance, will also spill over into other industries. If we can make cars, houses, fuels, clothing etc…using less stuff but just as functional, that's got to be good.

As a side question, does a square metre of cuben fiber require half as much petrochemicals to manufacture as the same amount of silnylon at twice the weight?? Is there a difference in energy cost bewteen the two manufacturing processes? What about Tyvek? These are the questions we should begin to ask of our gear. That and durability. If it uses half as much resources to manufacture, but is only a quarter as durable, then that is important to know too, as is recyclability.

Speaking as a gear freak to fellows of same…

Maybe UL gear do use up less materials than conventional gear. On the other hand, lest some of us become too quick to pat ourselves on the back for being good friends of the Earth… I really think that for too many of us, whatever resources we helped save by opting for a silnylon pack instead of a 6,000 cubic inch Gregory or Arcteryx… we more than make up for it by buying umteenth more other packs, clothing layers, gadgets and doodads! How many of us have just "one or two" shell jacket or backpack or bag or tent or pair of boots?

Finite resources is a problem, but a far bigger problem is our insatiable demand. We fall prey too often to marketing — and partly for that reason, we "nuance" our gear into ever more specialized use — and convince ourselves the 'need' to buy and stock accordingly — endlessly!

Shhhh, here's a secret so don't tell anyone: the economic doom is not going to be too bad and will be over before we know it was even here. Buy your gear. Enjoy your backpacking. Dance in the moonlight. Life is good with a tarptent from Henry.

Allison,

That's a fine looking puppy!

Ben,

Agree about the "insatiable demand" these days. I recently read a new book about Daniel Boone (Boone: A Biography by Robert Morgan). During his days, there was an "infinite supply" of animals to hunt, and a demand for the furs. He definitely was not a conservationist. But who rates Daniel Boone based on his eco-friendliness : )

Generally, demand and supply work together to come up with a price. There can not be a sell without a buy. Isn't it interesting how the marketing you noted that we fall prey to too often now comforts us using green strategies?

"Life is good with a tarptent from Henry."

Amen. Plenty of room in a Double Rainbow for two adults and small puppy. Life is good ;)

> As a side question, does a square metre of cuben fiber require half as much petrochemicals to manufacture as the same amount of silnylon at twice the weight?? Is there a difference in energy cost bewteen the two manufacturing processes?

Equally relevant might be to ask whether the 'cost' (in general terms) of the manufacturing comes anywhere near the 'cost' of transport to get the stuff to you.

And that ignores completely the cost of your transport from home to the trailhead …

Cheers

Obviously we are all more aware and concious of our individual choices and the impact than a seemingly great majority out there.

I think most people are more entrenched in "stuff" today than even 10 years ago…as a way to further shelter themselves from the reality of the big picture.

Our global society has a long way to go…if we can ever get there, regarding measured use of precious/finite resources.

I started down this deeper path only to avoid letting our passion for ultralight materials and all things "geeky hiking" become a point of worry. The original question posed seems so out of context with what is important in life.

I propose:
1. This is the wrong section of the board for this (but who cares)
2. Responsibly recycle gear when you buy something new and it becomes an orphan in the attic.
3. Backpacking will never get too popular. The good folks who make soft, comfy beds have guaranteed that. Also, bathroom manufacturers have an evil hand in it too.

Let's face it…there are probably millions of people who have not had a single family member from any generation in the last 5 or 6 go out in the woods and sleep on the ground in the name of fun.

So, like myself, you can only do your small part as an avid light-weight backpacker. Take someone who has no idea and let them try. But don't be sad if they don't like it. I get a certain joy out of knowing I am rather alone out there…and I might also be able to survive if money and all things "capitalistic" come to a hault.(or maybe I am dillusional!)

Currently I'm on the Aluminum Can Refund Retirement Plan but headed for the Ball Of String. All the while watching my IRA & 401k evaporate. Thank god I purchased so much good lightweight gear before I retired.

And I have not had a single sign-up for any of the trips I lead for the summer. Usually My book is filled by the end of May.

"I think most people are more entrenched in "stuff" today than even 10 years ago…as a way to further shelter themselves from the reality of the big picture."

I'd disagree with that – I can say that every family I knew when I was a kid had an attic full of junk. People didn't get rid of stuff….rather they stored it upstairs or down in the basement.

Rather, Americans in particular, just buy more stuff – prices are lower on many "toys" and houses are bigger. We didn't have Wal Mart Super Centers 20 years ago. I would hedge though that more items get tossed now rather than crammed away to molder. Anyone who has cleaned out a relatives house after they passed away will know what I am talking about. The generation that came of age during the Depression never threw anything away!

At 35 I can remember the days before scanners at grocery stores (not supermarkets). Life was simpler, yes. Technology has allowed mass production of items. A good example would be grocery stores – in the past decade our choices of food has expanded 1000's of times.

I for one don't have an issue with choices: "3. Backpacking will never get too popular. The good folks who make soft, comfy beds have guaranteed that." Yeah, well, I have a Sleep Number bed at home and I love that bed so much. And yet, somehow I backpack (rolling eyes). Oh yeah, it also has "magic fingers" for working muscles after hiking and has the old person special built in so our bed can sit up in tons of positions. Woooooooooooooo………yeah, I sleep like a worn out doggie every night I am at home. Did I mention I love technology?

oh I want one of those…that is one cute pup!!!!

Now those don't come cheap…lol

Allison,

A 660 cc car! Please provide some more info about it.

Wow, this thread really would fit better in Chaff or Philosophy…

Gail, the doggie wasn't expensive, but getting to Temuka to pick it up sure cost a bit of gas money! Then there's the cost of the cage, bedding, vet visits, micro-chipping, leash, food, and kenneling if we go away without him. Oh yeah, and the cost of replacement slippers :0

Casey, we recently bought a Subaru Vivio 5 door hatch (1993). It's in great condition and goes really zippy around town. It's even been to the trailhead a cople of times. They don't make them anymore :( It gets around 45 MPG around town, not sure about on the open road.

We try really hard to not just throw things out. First we try garage sales, then online Ebay type selling, then we attempt to give away everything that's left. We have a lot less "stuff" than many folks we know, but still have a long way to go before I would consider us economical or 'green'. I must say my favourite pieces of gear are the ones I made myself, but as Roger points out, the real (environmental) costs of getting the raw materials probably far outweighs any other savings we think we're making, but the sense of satisfaction from DIY makes it worthy in my eyes.

…was my question when I read the first post that used fuel price/usage as a reference point to economy.

Alison, though an older model, your vehicle is actually the future… for a short while at least.
Followed soon after by the horse.

Well, I'd say it is more about your MPG rather than size. We drive a diesel Mercedes sedan that its nickname is is "The Tank" due to that it can fit 5 real size adults and is a heavy car. Yet it gets nearly 40 MPG on the highway.

I don't feel overly guilty driving it to trailheads as I don't drive much during the week. We also run it on biodiesel as well. Even more so, it was a used car so it did not require a new vehicle to be made. We keep it in good shape and its emissions are in the lowest level for diesels (we have to have cars checked every 2 years here).

Thing is, with a simple $1400 addition we can run our car on both dino diesel, soy biodiesel and waste veg oil (WVO). We already get 600 mile per fill up, at that point we will get well over 1000 miles.

So yeah, I didn't feel too guilty about driving over 3K miles last month to go to Utah. Rather, we get asked a lot about our diesel – sedans are hard to get in the US till this summer when diesels are coming back.

If you all want to at least not feel as guilty, drive a diesel filled with bio!

40mpg is almost as good as the latest little 1.5l renault diesel. What make/model and engine is it?
(Yeah 'size' was a generalisation – economy was what I was getting at).

Sorry for hijack… Back to the economy…

Might want to stick with the WVO, as its becoming pretty clear now that biofuels were a bad idea and are becoming bad business as well. The price of cooking oil in China has doubled in the past 12 months, primarily due to demand for soy and palm oil for biodiesel production.

Seemed like a good idea at the time, although much of the idea was an extension of farm policy rather than sound and sustainable energy policy. Biofuels are a pretty good example of how difficult it is to predict the outcome of good ideas generally. High hopes turned to environmental disaster (palm biodiesel in SE Asia) and inflation in short order.

nm

Sarah,
When we buy gas or diesel at the gas station there is a certain amount of State and Federal tax added to that price. Do you pay that tax when you buy your Soy Biodiesel and Waste Veg oil?

If not do you know that you are required to pay it? Don't answer that if it is no you don't pay it. I don't want you to confess to breaking the law.

Bill