Outdoor Designs (UK) switch to eVENT

Jon,

This seems interesting since GE had made the decision to stop the use of eVENT for tents (flame retardancy issue). That is the reason for the discontinuation of the ID MK series eVENT mountaineering tents. Was under the impression that the few tents made of eVENT were to stop this year.

By the way Outdoor Designs is a sister company of Rab- same parent company in the UK.

Rich

Richard,

my understanding is that for items that are sold in the USA, use of eVENT in shelters that one can cook in are no longer permitted. this leaves bivies for sale in the USA, and larger shelters sold overseas. sorry, my ‘old-timers’ is acting up and i forget where i heard/read this. i’ve spoken twice with ID on this matter (both times many moons ago) and read of a number of web based articles and posts on this (once again, myriads of fortnights ago).

maybe someone else can clarify eVENT use in overseas sales. David Lewis, any idea about eVENT use in tents in Canada?

Paul,

I know that ID can use eVENT and eVENT in general can be used for making bivies and clothing. However, having spoken with Evan Jones, at ID before purchasing my eVENT MK1 lite (right after the announcement of the discontinuation of the eVENT MK series) I was under the impression that they were to be discontinued because of the lack of flame retardancy issue.

The ID eVENT MK series tents have been discontinued entirely (US, Canadian market, etc.). Additionally, ID can not sell any of their MK series single wall tents in Canada or about 5 or 6 US states.

If GE is going to approve Outdoor Designs to use eVENT for making tents, it seems to be a change in their postion. If they are not concerned about liability of injury of death due to flame retardancy, I would conclude that these tents would be available to usage outside of the US. These tents may not then be intended for sale in the US market?

Rich

right. mr. jones told me the same thing. however, it thought that it applied solely to the USA and possibly Canada (didn’t question him specifically on Canada). i interpreted his comments solely in light of my questions to him and the USA. it was for flame retardant issues that use was restricted (hence my comment on cooking – got that right from mr. jones). elsewhere, i’ve read (had to be read, because i’m recalling a little clearer now my two conversations with mr. jones) that eVENT is supposedly still approved for use in tents in other parts of the globe (different legal accountability???). can’t say that this is correct. only saying that i read that it was so.
my understanding was that these other mfr’s would NOT be selling them in the USA.

on a somewhat related matter. does anyone have any “numbers” on “waterproof” (in mm) and “breathability” (in gm/sq. m/24h) for eVENT and Epic fabrics? i have numbers for some other fabrics, but have not been able to find out the “numbers”/specs for eVENT and Epic.

as per Jones of ID–Canada was included with the US.

Paul,

I think that Alan Dixon’s article here on BPL has some breathability on both fabrics:

http://tinyurl.com/au329

Rich

Richard, many thanks. pj

Hi, Rich and Paul,

I mentioned earlier on this site–I guess it just got lost in the sauce–that Exped’s Polaris tent is made of eVENT[…]

Jon

Jon,

thanks for weighing in here. now that you mentioned Exped, i remember reading your posts on this subject. sorry for the “senior moment” and forgetting who it was who mentioned that (and where you mentioned it).

the Polaris appears to be quite a large and heavy mountaineering shelter. does Exped use eVENT in any smaller/lighter tents?

i also remember, now, that i questioned whether that was really eVENT or just another ePTFE laminate (not sure if i posted such a comment or just thought it to myself). can you refresh my memory as to the source of your info, please? i’m a bit surprised that GE would let it in throught the “backdoor”. i, naively (what do i know about legal matters???), would think that GE would still be “on the hook” legally in our litigious society if a foreign mfr. sold eVENT tents in the USA. after all, isn’t ID a Canadian (foreign) company? sure that are, and they can’t, any longer, use eVENT in tents that one can cook in, right?

would appreciate you elaborating a bit more on your post and respond to my questions if you care to. not saying i’m right. just thinking out loud and hoping that by doing so, you can see where i’m coming from and can set me straight by eliminating some of my confusion.

thanks again.

Jon,

Yes I remember reading your post regarding the Exped Polaris, but did not respond to the posting.

Outdoor Designs is presently a small presence here in the US. Equip UK or whatever the parent company is named has made a small attempt at distribution of Outdoor Designs products in the US . They are also considering distribution of the sister company, Rab to the US market. Perhaps, Outdoor Designs or any other maker of eVENT tents will be prohibited from importing their eVENT tents into this country. However, then the question arises as to any gray market or other distribution channel importing these products into the US.

Rich

Richard,

many thanks for the swift reply. i’ve downloaded the article. skimmed it (mainly looking at the table). will have to read it in more depth.

the #’s in the table are interesting. two points immediately jumped to the forefront of my mind.

1. the numbers on some tests are 3x to 9x lower than the typical numbers for breathability published by the Mfr’s of most (all???) of the products. guess the Mfr’s must be using a different test – perhaps the one in the table yielding the highest numbers as they are closer to actual Mfr. published figures.

2. on all tests but one (if i recall correctly), eVENT (and many other GTX type laminates) outperformed Epic by Nextec. i’ll have to read the specifics of how each test is conducted. normally, esp. on this website, Epic is considered to be far more breathable than the true WPB laminates – much closer to the Pertex DWR fabrics. the numbers alone tell a far different story. so, the plot thickens (or sickens)… i’ll have to read closely the entire article to see if it sheds any light on why Epic’s numbers are so low. perhaps the “sweating hot plate” test method is closer to actual conditions on the human body – Epic did better than eVENT on that test. well…let me end this post & read the article.
thanks again Richard. appreciate your input.

re: Epic breathability – mystery solved. good article. many thanks Richard for directing me to it.

still one question: Mr. Dixon’s statements regarding “energy levels” of some WP/B fabrics, is this just another way of describing the age old battle between “adhesion” and “cohesion”? any takers? would appreciate your input and time taken to educate me here.

Yep,

surface tension of water: 70-75 dynes/cm
surface tension of ePTFE: 20-22 dynes/cm
The tension level of ePTFE is just not high enough to overcome the cohesion forces between H2O molecules in a waterdrop.

Tom,

thanks. really appreciate the clarification.

[…]

The Polaris is, as Paul describes, a mountaineering type tent, and it is definitely made of eVENT. I have one, and with the optional fourth pole (which is really mandatory if you will see snow, and even highly welcome against high winds) it weighs 6 lbs 5 oz. total packaged weight, including an integral vestibule. Tent and poles alone is 5 lbs. 3.6 oz. The design provides excellent overhead room throughout the length of the tent, and excellent ventilation through vents on each of the four sides of the tent.

I was excited to learn, as others may be, that Exped are currently developing other shelter ideas with eVENT and/or EPIC.

Just a final question for Paul: What is “just another ePTFE laminate”? Besides Gore and eVENT, who else makes ePTFE for fabric applications? The “generic” ePTFE that is used, for instance, in hybrid jackets put out by Arc’teryx is still licensed by Gore.

Cheers!

Jon,

There are other makers of ePTFE laminate materials or at least they are trademarked and used as tent materials amongst other products by Intergral Designs (Tegraltex) and also by Bibler (ToddTex).

Rich

Yes, it is an interesting article by Mr. Dixon.
The SHP test sure seems to bear out my personal experience with many of these fabrics w/ Epic at or near the top.
What is (or was) Pertexion? That particular w/b fabric took top honors on that particular test.

I would assume that stats would change for a specific w/b formula depending on the type of face fabric used ( weight, texture,nylon or poyester, etc.) which was only lightly touched upon by the tests.

Rich,

Both Toddtex and Tegraltex are GoreTex (PU/ePTFE) with a lining of Nexus (and in some cases a fire-retardancy application); it has often been noted that both companies were able to secure a deal with Gore very early on before Gore became the behemoth that it is today, but I don’t know the details for sure. However, it makes sense as a plausible explanation for why neither Bibler nor ID is able to offer a complete line of other ePTFE-based products besides tents (e.g. apparel) that use the ePTFE membrane (as in Gore’s Activent a.k.a Windstopper). It suggests to me that neither company has rights to the membrane itself (or else their marketing departments are quite simply asleep–which is obviously not the case), but only to a trademarked fabric package of an ePTFE membrane sandwiched between a nylon exterior and a Nexus polyester lining.

As for ePTFE that doesn’t use PU, it’s only found in eVENT, isn’t it?! In any case, my friends, the bottom line is: eVENT is what is used in the Exped Polaris–even, yes, in North America.

Hope this doesn’t make anybody come unglued!

Jon

Jon, (the names have been removed to protect the innocent) Perhaps mumm’s the word (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)?

We now return you to our sponsors

Perhaps in a couple of days we might as well just erase this thread…

Jon,

sorry for the delay in responding – wasn’t monitoring the Forums in the later afternoon & evening (my time) . apparently, no need for me to reply as Richard’s answer is precisely what i would have written. however, just wanted you to know that i wasn’t ignoring you.

thanks for providing your info on Exped. appreciate it. if you hear of smaller, lighter shelters using eXPED (code-word so GE doesn’t figure it out – don’t tell anyone, it’ll be our secret), please let us know.

Interesting question of Jon: is there another ePTFE laminate without PU layer ? The laminate Outdoor designs is using is an air permeable formulation of gore-tex. Since the PU-layer in gore-tex prevents gas exchange, air permeability seems only possible if there is no PU-layer. Actually, if the laminate that Outdoor Designs is using currently,is nothing more than pure ePTFE, it should have a higher MVTR than eVENT since the applied coating in eVENT reduces the MVTR. Interesting to note then that in the single wall shelter review, air permeable gore-tex seemed more condensation prone than eVENT. Why ?

BTW, some sources say Windstopper doesn’t have a PU layer either, although I have my doubts about this.

Hello from Germany..
just to clarify matters. I wrote a mail to outdoordesigns, and this what I got:

Unfortunately the grapevine was not working correctly in Germany.

We are NOT planning to make eVENT tents. (Both the eVENT and Gore
fabrics are not flame retardant which contravenes some laws for tents in
some countries and we do not want to be open to a lawsuit)

We will be continuing with our successful range of bivibags in eVENT
material which are not governed by the same rules as tents.

Thanks & Best Regards,

chris harding
equip outdoor technologies

sing along–“If you want it,here it is, come and get it, but you gotta hurry cause it’s going fast…”

http://www.orgear.com/home/style/exped_or/exped_tents/10421