Wool 2 + DriDucks–> min temp?

Hi-

I have to throw out the usual disclaimer that it depends on your individual metabolism, terrain, weather, hiking speed, caloric intake, etc.

But…

I often use a thin base layer (not wool in my particular case) and wind or rain shell (DriDucks and others) down to 30 degrees or so *while moving*. The boundary layer of air on the inside and outside (if it's not too windy) of the shell provides sufficient insulation. The caveat is that you'll cool down very fast when you stop, so you need to put on an insulation layer immediately when you reach camp, take a rest stop, etc.

I use DriDucks if I only expect to need that layer intermittently for rain, wind, or cold. Otherwise, I prefer a more breathable hooded windshirt like a Marmot Ion, or an Integral Designs eVent Jacket for wet conditions.

For conditions between, say, 0 and 30 degrees F, I use either a thin base layer + vapor barrier shirt ( + wind or rain shell if needed for additional warmth) or base layer + hooded softshell ( + wind or rain shell if needed).

Cheers,

-Mike

Thanks Mike. That was very helpful.

edit:

I plan to make a hybrid garment of driduck/supplex/silnylon which can work as either rain/wind shell or both VB and wind/rain shell. I have explained my system here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/11965/index.html?skip_to_post=93172#93172

Basically it is VB OVER driducks. Will this affect the layering system? If yes, how?

Well I work with some guys from India and they get cold at 60 degrees, so it's hard to generalize! But in a long sleeved wool hoodie and wind jacket, long wool underwear/pants and wind pants I'm good to around 30 as well without too much trouble. But I'm in new england where people are wearing shorts when it gets over 50.

I think you get used to the temps though. One of our Indian guys says he gets very hot when he goes back home in temps in which he normally would have been comfortable growing up.

That VB/DriDucks hybrid sounds like an interesting project. It's certainly out of the mainstream! Please share the results here when you finish it.

I can only speculate as to how it *might* work. But, I suspect that having the DD layer inside the VB layer (plus a base layer I imagine) is too much stuff inside the VB that can accumulate moisture. There is also the issue of it being a very warm garment that may only be useful for very low temps and/or activity levels. Then, assuming you desire this to be waterproof, there is the issue of sealing the VB/DD seams and zippers.

Like I said above, this is an interesting project and I congratulate you for thinking "outside the box".

Good Luck.

Cheers,

-Mike

Personally, I find that while moving, 150 g/m2 wool bottoms and 200 g/m2 wool top with a windshirt and either nylon pants or rain pants is needed (with a poncho) will keep me confortable to 30 F easily.

This is while hiking in the forested White Mountains of New England which will generate plenty of heat. Hiking in flatter (less energetic) terrain where more exposed to wind would require the necessary adjustments.

Mike, thanks for the nice comment. It is good to know that it will be very warm. My design has a full side (double) zip from armpits to all the way down giving me lot of ventilation flexibility.

Michael, thanks for sharing your exprience.

My layers for winter would be:

Top: Pat Wool 2> DriDuck/supplex/silnylon knee lenght anorak (or is it cagoule?)

Bottom: Pat Wool 2 OR wool long johns> DriDuck/supplex/silnylon chaps

Isnt this SUL? I dont know how one can comfortably go lighter then this.

edit: I removed the boxers because I couldnt find any synthetic boxers good at resisting odour.

I would say that active insulation can be quite minimal for even sub freezing temperatures, but how long can you continuously hike at near-full throttle pace? Moreover, what happens when you over-exert yourself by doing this all day, two or three days in a row, and you end up sick at the end of the third day? It happens, especially in the cold when people are nearing their limit of physical ability. When I climbed Mount Rainier, it must have been in the teens in the early morning but when I was moving I only had a capilene base and a wind shell and even then I was plenty warm. However, once I had to take a rest stop, I started shivering and I didn't stop until I had a huge down jacket over my torso (Feathered Friends Rock and Ice parka) and had eaten several energy bars. The temps did of course warm up as the day went on, but at the end of that day I pretty much went to sleep and didn't wake up until 6pm the next evening. Granted, it was Mount Rainier and not an ultralight backpacking trip in more reasonable terrain, but I'm just trying to illustrate one experience I had when I was exerting myself quite a lot all day long. When I go on winter backpacking trips, I'm usually alternating between 1-3 wool layers because I simply don't like to be cold and I don't like to be exerting myself so much that I'm breathing hard, especially all day long.

Just voicing my anti-SUL-for-clothes-in-cold-weather opinion. Bring enough clothes to be safe when it's cold out, no matter how "uncool" it is to be non-SUL. Better be safe than frozen. Or at least, it's better to be warm at night, rather than shivering all night long due to not enough insulation or clothes.

With regards to the original question, I think a Patagonia wool 2 base plus a windshirt would be good active insulation into the 30s without any wind, perhaps not that low if there's a stiff breeze. I wouldn't wear one layer top and one layer bottoms, though. I always add another layer onto my torso before adding a layer to my legs. Legs are just an extremity, but your torso is crucial for keeping your vital organs warm.

Using a synthetic quilt as resting insulation is definitely multiuse and SUL, but IMO not very practical as a main piece of insulation in regions that ever experience rain. What happens when it's 35 degrees, raining and you're just wearing a thin wool base plus raingear? A quilt might fit under Driducks, but it won't stay 100% dry inside a rain jacket (either from you being too warm and sweating or from moisture seeping in through the head hole or through the zipper).

OK, I'll stop naysaying now

Art, thanks for the nice, long comment.

Or at least, it's better to be warm at night, rather than shivering all night long due to not enough insulation or clothes.

I plan to get warm enough quilt for even the coldest weather that could be expected. But Down/synthetics compresses amazingly small and is very light unlike fleece or extra layers of wool. I wouldnt need them at night.

I always add another layer onto my torso before adding a layer to my legs.

You want me to remove woolen long johns?:) My bottoms are light but not merino so I think they will not be as warm as merino top. Im using them because I dont want driduck next to my skin.

Using a synthetic quilt as resting insulation is definitely multiuse and SUL, but IMO not very practical as a main piece of insulation in regions that ever experience rain. What happens when it's 35 degrees, raining and you're just wearing a thin wool base plus raingear?

I was thinking about the same thing yesterday. What would I do if it is raining outside, there is no shelter nearby and I want to stop for a break? If I take out my quilt it will get wet.

I use my DAM as my poncho. I have been working on a polybag DAM idea with a resealable head hole. I can use it over my shell even in rain without worrying about down getting wet.

Here is the link the link to the thread where I have discussed the polybag DAM idea:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/12708/index.html

Certainly don't let me deter you from trying something new. Maybe just bring a little insurance in the form of a fleece or two until you've got your system fully experimented with and understood.