I'd have to say that I agree with William Stadwiser, and I think I said many of the same things he did, though not so eloquently. In particular, concening the U.S. at least, I see a great difference in how BLM or national forest land is used contrasted with national park land. (At least concerning small recreational campfires.)
Actually, I understand why some people don't want this discussion to take place in this particular forum thread. I think it would be more appropriate to start another thread. But this is a minor detail.
I respect Arapiles because, even if he disagrees with me on some things, he was willing to discuss the issue and CITE REFERENCES. I learned things, too. That is the point of a discussion. (He is also polite.)
The opinion of Brian James, on this subject, at this point I do not respect.
Brian James wrote:
"trapped in wood, propane, coal, the walls of my house, or the pages of library books = not changing the climate"
This is an easy simplification to make, but displays a fundamental lack of understanding of what a carbon cycle is and how it relates to the SUSTAINABILITY of a carbon fuel source. Either that, or we are having some sort of communication breakdown, and we're not discussing the same subject.
The way you talk about forestry and the carbon cycle makes it sound like you have read a reference. Cite it, so that your critics can read it and decide if it is hogwash. It may not be. For all I know you are a climatologist. That's why I am here– to learn something.
You say an awful lot about "analysis", then don't back up your statements and instead go on a rant about some mythical Vast Environmental Conspiracy (VEC).
Brian James wrote:
"If burning wood was "carbon neutral", we could just have wood-fired power plants and woodgas cars (they exist) and we wouldn't have a climate change problem anymore."
With this statement you have proved that you comment on our posts without reading them fully. We covered this. Both Arapiles and I acknowledge that human civilization cannot be wood-powered. Got back and re-read them.
Brian James wrote:
"As soon as someone is using labels and terms (eg. active carbon cycle, eco-friendly, carbon-neutral, mortal sin) you can bet your crucifix that you're now part of someone else's agenda."
This is the big reason I have no respect for your opinion right now. You have made a tautological argument. In other words, it is an "A = A" argument or a form of a "No True Scotsman" argument. By saying this you have defined ANYONE who uses a certain phrase as a fanatic and basically wrong. Thus BY DEFINITION anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, and you feels no need to support your position in any other way.
This is an argument universally recognized as illogical and void in any high-school debating club, let alone honest reasonable discourse. I simply do not respect it. You are actually doing EXACTLY what you accuse those "Environmental Religion" people of doing. You should strive to be better than them.
If you are unwilling (or unable) to support your position then, frankly, my time is too valuable to waste it by reading your unsubstantiated rantings. Especially when the best you can do is call me a religious zealot and pawn of "the agenda." Here's a reference for you…
http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/
The only agenda I have, sir, is spending time with my family and enjoying the outdoors.
Incidentally, while we are doubting everyone's motivations, I notice that you are from B.C., so OF COURSE you support logging and forestry. It's important for your economy! Perhaps you work for Weyerhauser its Canadian equivalent? You also ignore the fact that people who oppose clear-cutting are not doing so out of concern for the carbon balance, but rather because they see utility in a pristine wilderness beyond the market value of the wood.
Sorry. I usually try VERY hard not to sink that low, but I was trying to make the point that it is easy to jump to conclusions about YOU, as well. I do not actually suspect you of being a tinfoil-hat loonie, and I am aware that there has always been great debate about the logging industry in B.C.
For what it's worth, I do agree with you on the hybrid car thing. Just about every token effort the environmental loyalists are making nowadays might actually be worse in the short term. But in the long term I would propose that they are important tokens of a changing attitude. What Rosa Parks did was a token gesture, too, but attitudes changed.
Egad. This thread has turned into everything bad about internet forums. Let's start another thread for the carbon-cycle-flame-wars and let everyone else get back to camping, eh? I'll start it myself…
Done.
It is under "Chaff" and titled "The Carbon Flame War." I think this link will work:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/12706/index.html
By the way, how do you post a link in this forum so that it is live? I've been playing around with these links for hours…