Primaloft improves – press release

I wonder how many other bits of news like this fell under BPL.com radar while they were reporting?? on the last ORWM in Salt Lake City.

The "Convexion Technology" will be a production line upgrade for both the Primaloft One and Sport insualtions. I think Primaloft is making one or more other insulations and my giuess is that all Primaloft insulation will also have this new idea made into them.

This production line change is scheduled to happen in August 2008. There will be no price change for this improvement at the wholesale level.

The new CLO ratings are
– Primaloft One goes from 0.84 to 0.92.
– Primaloft Sport goes from 0.74 to 0.79.

CLO rating established by third party testing.

(The above information supplied by Primaloft)

Hi Bill-

Ouch! You comment on our ORWM reporting wounds me. :(

We met with Primaloft at the show and were aware of their "convection technology". But, at the time, they did not have any technical details available, just marketing literature about how wonderful the new product was. We elected not to publish about it because we lacked any substantial data.

Cheers,

-Mike

Hi Mike,

In a well run organization it would be called "follow-up".

Oh well, we expect to much from a free – oh no – we pay for this – don't we.

Next example related to insulation:

The interview (podcast) with Brian Emanuel of Western Nonwoven that was "messed up"??. Interesting since Climashield is the big insulation competitor to the Cocoon line and a favorite insulation used by the MYOG folks. The plot thickens as it now looks like Climashield XP may be the next insulation used in the Cocoon Line. A change that I would sure support.

But who am I.

Hey Mike, I even expected a personal phone call about this insignificant news. Why didn't I get it? ; )

Hi Bill-

Really, there is no sinister conspiracy going on here. I was personally responsible for the technical problems we had with the Climashield interview at ORSM. FWIW, I invited them to do another interview at ORWM, but they declined.

I share your enthusiasm for insulation technology and appreciate all of your forum contributions on the subject.

I don't have any insider information as to the next insulation used in Cocoon products. Maybe Ryan can comment. But, I assure you that (1) nobody in BPL management is biasing our insulation editorial coverage, and (2) BPL will continue to use the best insulation available in its Cocoon products. (The use of Polarguard Delta in the Cocoon line predates the availability of Climashield XP.)

Cheers,

-Mike

Does anyone know how the new Primaloft compares to down (say, 800) or the old Polarguard Delta? This would be really nice stuff to have on a chart.

Richard should be able to get close with an answer for you.

I could give you my option but you may like Richards better.

I am a bit more optimistic than Richard will be "for myself" but I would not fault his reasoning (answer) for the masses.

Ross,
As an UL backpacker, I assume that the primary clo metric you are interested in is clo/oz:

-The now discontinued Polarguard Delta is .68 clo/oz.
-Standard down (550 fill power) is .70 clo/oz.
-Cimashield XP is .82 clo/oz.
-Current Primaloft One is .84 clo/oz
-Primaloft One Convexion is .92 clo/oz but, it will not be generally available until late summer or early fall.
-800+ fill power down is 1.68 clo/oz at the density used in most UL manufactures products such as Mont-bell's (2.16 kg/m^3).

Thank you Richard- I have been looking for the compartive clo/oz value of down and simply could not track it down. As and aside, I had no idea how badly Delta stacked up against Primaloft… or how well Primaloft did against average down. Where did you get the numbers for the down?

I feel like I am missing some backstory between Bill and the site in general, but would love his opinion on down vs. synthetic in terms of wamrth to weight ratios.

Michael,

There is no good single source for the comparative clo/oz of various types of down that I am aware of. I have distilled secondary research from a very large number of scientific papers as well as conducted primary research on this topic. I am involved in an insulation measurement related business start-up.

im curious too. that number usually checks out when comparing weights of insulation in sleeping bags of similar warmth. When comparing a 20* western mountaineering bag w/ a kelty XP 20* bag, it was 15oz down to 28 oz of xp- designs and ratings being equal that would give a derived XP clo/oz of .89, which is close to its actual rating.

The numbers skew a bit when comparing the sierra designs 15* nitro with 20 oz 800 fill down and their 15* cochise XP bag with 27 oz of XP. all things being equal, if the down calc was right, xp would have a theoretical clo/oz of 1.24 which isn't close. Since we know the XP is .82, these numbers would lead to 800 fill down having a clo/oz of about 1.1. WM 15* bags had 19 oz of down for reference. Something seems amiss with this, but i think it is more with sierra designs' ratings than richards numbers.

Even more interesting is TNF's fission bag. it is 20* and has climashield neo in it, but only 23 oz fill. i checked the european site, but it wasn't listed to check the euro test rating compared to other TNF bags:(. All things equal, this neo insulation would have a clo/oz of .94 which would be sweet!!! Google found me no more info on Climashield Neo however and its almost 2am.

Richard,

Do you have any CLO values for other down fill powers used like 600, 650, 700, 750 ?

Thanks.

ps: Here's some additional info for MYOG people:
The new Climashield "combat" is .78 clo/oz (Source Thru-hiker.com store page).

Since the Climashield XP in the 2.5 oz / sq yard has a .6" loft and the Climashield Combat (3.7 osy) has a .9" loft – I suspect it is what comes with the Jardine quilt kits.

Personally, I think a better UL approach is to use 1 layer of Climashield XP in 5.0 osy with 1.2" loft at .82 clo (ie: 20 degree bag) plus 1 layer of XP in the 2.5 osy at .82 clo (ie: 40 degree bag) if you want a 32 degree bag rather than use Climashield combat (which gives a 32 degree bag at 3.7 osy and .78 clo) since combat has the less warmth per weight (lower clo/oz) than XP.

In this case the "new" version of Climashield (combat) ,is just "Berry" compliant. The Berry ammendment just says military items have to have X% domestic content. Combat's inefficiency is due to it having some non-virgin (recycled) fibers.

I just came back into my house after laying out on my deck under a tarp in the rain and with temperatures that went from 44 degrees “F” to 49 degrees “F”.

I was in my Pertex Quantum / Cuben Bivy, using a GG – 3/8″ sleeping pad inside the Bivy. I was using my one layer of 2.1 ounce per sq yard Climashield Combat Quilt in the Bivy. The Combat I was using has a CLO of 1.63.

I am wearing a set of Patagonia #2 wool top and bottom, a pair of light liner gloves and wearing the hood on my #2 wool top.

After about 15 or 20 minutes I almost thought I was going to be to warm. I turned on my side and let a little cool air in and it got just right.

Some would say that my quilt (made out of to quote John “Combat’s inefficiency is due to it having some non-virgin (recycled) fibers.”) can not be warm at that temperature. I have slept with this same set-up down to 42 degrees and was warm enough to sleep without waking up.

Combat Quilt Project

Test for yourself and you will find out what works for you.

One thing to remember is that you can not make first rate gear out of second rate material.

overall, the difference is insignificant between combat and xp, especially when you consider P3D or Delta. I think the main difference is available weights for use. I know that the 3.7 or 3.5 combat (OWF Inc has 3.5) will give a much more versatile sleep system than would 2.5 XP because I have one of each. The 2.5 XP has pretty limited use, while the extra ounce of insulation with combat gives a drastic increase in available days for use.

I also feel that for people who are not in the optimal demographic (not me, HAHA!!)to make lots of heat at night, 40*, 32*, and 20* are very optimistic ratings for all those insulations. If I could recommend a second bag like you did, it would be 2 layers of the 3.5 vs a layer of 5 oz because it would give an rating of 10-25* as opposed to 20-35* for a layer of 5oz XP.

Just something to consider I guess, but I hate it when I have to bring along things I don't use in camp to supplement my 6 oz primaloft (clo 4.44) layered bag because it doesn't quite get me comfy enough when it dips below 25*.

John,

A simple extrapolation, using the 550 and 800 fill power values I provided, will give you all of the other fill powers you want values for.

>>Even more interesting is TNF's fission bag. it is 20* and has climashield neo in it, but only 23 oz fill. i checked the european site, but it wasn't listed to check the euro test rating compared to other TNF bags:(. All things equal, this neo insulation would have a clo/oz of .94 which would be sweet!!!

The new Fission also caught my eye. It's hard to know without a EN 13537 rating but I think the 20F rating given by TNF may be a tad on the optimistic side. The closest bag I could find using Climashield Neo that has been EN 13537 rated is the European version of the Orion. (The US version still uses Primaloft).

The Climashield Neo Orion has 27 oz. of fill and a 62" shoulder girth. The Fission has 23 oz. of fill with a 60" shoulder girth. I'm thinking that the more efficient cut of the Fission would make up for the 4 oz. less of fill. Since the Orion gets a EN 13537 lower limit of 25F, the Fission would probably get a similar rating. So the clo/oz. for Climashield Neo is most likely close to that of XP.

What I found intriguing on the TNF site was this statement about Climashield Neo:

"Neo’s resiliency sets a new benchmark for the outdoor industry. One test consisted of completely compressing the Neo fill in a lab through 100,000 cycles. In the end, it regained 78 percent of original loft, substantially more than any previous synthetic fill used by The North Face®."

We really won't know without looking at the lab tests but if this statement even remotely approaches the truth, we're looking at a very good insulation.

Some additional information about the new version of Primaloft One:

=======

That 40 g/m^2 will definitely fill a niche. I could use that for a cycling vest and it would be a good weight for lightly insulated pants, mitts, sleep sox, etc.

If anyone finds out that this is stocked through normal retail outlets (owfinc.com, thru-hiker.com, etc.) please throw a post up.

Too bad it won't be available until August. Do you think "sample yardage" would include enough to make myself a top bag or quilt for my AT thru-hike this summer? Maybe if you all ordered samples and mailed them to me ;)

Question will be about durability… it's always been said that short-staple insulations are less durable than continuous filaments. So would it still be warmer/weight than XP after repeated uses. Especially considering it is advertising finer fibers… would they break down faster maybe? One insulation test I would like to have information on is all the major insulations compressed or "used" to an equal degree/number of times to find out which is warmest per weight after it's loft-loss has leveled out. Would also be nice to get information on just how much "more compressible" the new Primaloft will be.

I used what probably was 1st generation PrimaLoft in the form of a Caribou Mountaineering summer bag back in '97. After only 2 summers and very proper storage (hanging) the "Loft" in PrimaLoft disappeared.

So I have ever since been very skeptical of PrimaLoft's ability to maintain loft after repeated compressions. Sure, all synthetic fibers lose SOME loft after years of use but not like my PrimaLoft bag did.

So I'll stick with Climadhield and down, thank you very nice.

Eric

Any news on where to get this?

I got this reply from AYCE on 14th October.

I have a roll of 3 oz basis weight PL1 on order which should be here within a week or two, but it may go for momentum prequilting rather than for sale as roll goods. PL1 is a challenging insulation for home gearmakers to work with because of its relatively rigorous stabilization requirements.

Huzefa,

If you are buying a full roll of insulation why didn't you buy direct from Albany International Corp?

Hi Bill.

I have plans to complete thru-hiker's Maxima and Minima kit sometime and was inquiring about availability of PL1 for that. I will be getting insulation in the kit so I dont really need a roll. Anyways I am curious – How many yard does a roll have? You have got yours? made any new gear? I would like to know how durable it is. The clo value is really cool and the main reason I plan to make gear from prequilted PL1/momentum is that it will be much easier to work with compared to baffled down in clothing. I am interested in how new pl1 holds up over time.